Originally posted by epiphinehasMatt 7 : 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
Perhaps someone should consider the implications of not believing that Jesus is God, if any.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out of thine eye; and, behold, a beam is in thine own eye?
5 Thou hypocrite, first cast out the beam out of thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
Originally posted by epiphinehasWell, I for one admire and love the Lord Jesus even more. I now realize that He was a man and had to trust God like anyone else. I can also now, identify with Him like never before. 🙂
Perhaps someone should consider the implications of not believing that Jesus is God, if any.
Originally posted by LemonJelloYes, this is important to come to terms with. As far as divine, I am saying that Jesus is not of human origin. In addition, I would say that he is also part of the Trinity and this is my reasoning.
Gah.
No, you were trying to ascertain whether or not Jesus was 'divine', remember? Of course, you laid absolutely no groundwork as to what you mean by 'divine'. I presume the search will cover scripture, yes, but my question was just one of heightened clarification concerning just what you are looking for. Maybe I'm just not familiar with the terminology here, but your answer doesn't seem to address my question.
1. Christ existed before he was born into this material word in his weakened human state. This can be seen Biblically in Revelation 1:8 as Christ says he is the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. Also in John 8:58 Christ says that he existed before Abraham existed. Also in John 1:14 we are told that Christ is God's Word incarnate and we are told beforehand in John 1:1 that in the Beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the word WAS God. What mortal can make such claims?
2. Who but God can forgive sins? Yet we see Christ doing this on multiple occasions such as in Luke 7:49 and Mattthew 9:2. Again the implications for this power were seen in ther response of those that witnessed this coarse of action which was that Christ blasphemed because only God can forgive sins.
3. Who is to be worshiped EXCEPT God himself? Yet we see Christ being worshiped on more than one occasion in the NT. This can be seen as his disciple Thomas bows down before him and calls Jesus his Lord and his God in John 20:28 and in Revelations 5:12 the Lamb (Christ) is seen being worshiped. I would ask to whom does glory belong? Is it man or is it God? For me, everthing comes from God hence NOTHING should be credited to those who were created. Only God deserves the glory and honer that is due him yet this is not the case Bibilically if Christ were not part of the Trinity.
4. The charge of blashpemy continues throughout the NT when Christ does such things as forgiving sins, says he existed before Abraham, claims to be the Messiah or Son of God and so forth. He evades being killed for his perceived blasphemy until it says he lays down his life for us. It is clear that Christ was percieved as acting in a blasphemous way by making himself equal to God in the eye so the people. Either this was not his intention and he made no attempt to remedy this perception or he agreed with their ascertion that he was indeed one with the Father. If, however, his intention was not to make himself as God's ONLY son, then why did he not counter these notions? Why did he not offer a rebuttal just as he was accused of blasphemy before going to the cross? Ahosyney has haswered this question by saying that it was not actually Christ being tried and it was not actually Christ who died on the cross. However, for those of us who read the text for what it says this simply is not the case. What other explanations are there other than this?
Originally posted by whodeyMT 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the SON OF GOD, command that these stones be made bread.
Yes, this is important to come to terms with. As far as divine, I am saying that Jesus is not of human origin. In addition, I would say that he is also part of the Trinity and this is my reasoning.
1. Christ existed before he was born into this material word in his weakened human state. This can be seen Biblically in Revelation 1:8 as Christ says he is ...[text shortened]... what it says this simply is not the case. What other explanations are there other than this?
MT 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the SON OF GOD, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
MT 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON OF GOD? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
MT 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the SON OF GOD.
MT 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the SON OF GOD.
MT 27:40 And saying, Thou that destroyest the temple, and buildest it in three days, save thyself. If thou be the SON OF GOD, come down from the cross.
MT 27:43 He trusted in God; let him deliver him now, if he will have him: for he said, I am the SON OF GOD.
MT 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the SON OF GOD.
MR 1:1 The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the SON OF GOD;
MR 3:11 And unclean spirits, when they saw him, fell down before him, and cried, saying, Thou art the SON OF GOD.
MR 15:39 And when the centurion, which stood over against him, saw that he so cried out, and gave up the ghost, he said, Truly this man was the SON OF GOD.
LU 1:35 And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the SON OF GOD.
LU 3:38 Which was the son of Enos, which was the son of Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the SON OF GOD.
LU 4:3 And the devil said unto him, If thou be the SON OF GOD, command this stone that it be made bread.
LU 4:9 And he brought him to Jerusalem, and set him on a pinnacle of the temple, and said unto him, If thou be the SON OF GOD, cast thyself down from hence:
LU 4:41 And devils also came out of many, crying out, and saying, Thou art Christ the SON OF GOD. And he rebuking them suffered them not to speak: for they knew that he was Christ.
LU 8:28 When he saw Jesus, he cried out, and fell down before him, and with a loud voice said, What have I to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON OF GOD most high? I beseech thee, torment me not.
LU 22:70 Then said they all, Art thou then the SON OF GOD? And he said unto them, Ye say that I am.
JOH 1:34 And I saw, and bare record that this is the SON OF GOD.
JOH 1:49 Nathanael answered and saith unto him, Rabbi, thou art the SON OF GOD; thou art the King of Israel.
JOH 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten SON OF GOD.
JOH 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the SON OF GOD: and they that hear shall live.
JOH 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the SON OF GOD?
JOH 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the SON OF GOD?
JOH 11:4 When Jesus heard that, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the SON OF GOD might be glorified thereby.
JOH 11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the SON OF GOD, which should come into the world.
JOH 19:7 The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by our law he ought to die, because he made himself the SON OF GOD.
JOH 20:31 But these are written, that ye might believe that Jesus is the Christ, the SON OF GOD; and that believing ye might have life through his name.
AC 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the SON OF GOD.
AC 9:20 And straightway he preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the SON OF GOD.
RO 1:4 And declared to be the SON OF GOD with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
2CO 1:19 For the SON OF GOD, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
GA 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the SON OF GOD, who loved me, and gave himself for me.
EPH 4:13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the SON OF GOD, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:
HEB 4:14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the SON OF GOD, let us hold fast our profession.
HEB 6:6 If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the SON OF GOD afresh, and put him to an open shame.
HEB 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the SON OF GOD; abideth a priest continually.
HEB 10:29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the SON OF GOD, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?
1JO 3:8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the SON OF GOD was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
1JO 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the SON OF GOD, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
1JO 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the SON OF GOD?
1JO 5:10 He that believeth on the SON OF GOD hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
1JO 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the SON OF GOD hath not life.
1JO 5:13 These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the SON OF GOD; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the SON OF GOD.
1JO 5:20 And we know that the SON OF GOD is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
RE 2:18 And unto the angel of the church in Thyatira write; These things saith the SON OF GOD, who hath his eyes like unto a flame of fire, and his feet are like fine brass;
Originally posted by epiphinehasSir, I believe that I have. And I've concluded that "jesus is not god;" not the messiah. The Jewish people do not consider jesus as Moshiach. Belief in HaShem (G-d, El Shaddai, Elohim), YES; but jesus, NO!
Perhaps someone should consider the implications of not believing that Jesus is God, if any.
Originally posted by Rajk999Why do I get the feeling you're judging me?
Matt 7 : 1 Judge not, that ye be not judged.
2 For with what judgment ye judge, ye shall be judged: and with what measure ye mete, it shall be measured to you again.
3 And why beholdest thou the mote that is in thy brother's eye, but considerest not the beam that is in thine own eye?
4 Or how wilt thou say to thy brother, Let me pull out the mote out o ...[text shortened]... thine own eye; and then shalt thou see clearly to cast out the mote out of thy brother's eye.
If these passages were NOT used to deny the deity of Christ then I apologize for a slightly miss aimed rebuttal.
++++++++++++++++++++
MT 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the SON OF GOD, command that these stones be made bread.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
Christ is the mingling of God and man. By saying that Christ is God we do not mean that He is not also man.
The Son is addressed as God in Hebrews 1:8.
"But of the Son, Your throne, O God, is forever and ever ..."
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MT 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the SON OF GOD, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
By saying that the Son shall be called Eternal Father and that the
child born shall be called Mighty God (See Isa. 9:6) we do not mean that Christ is not also a man. He is God-man.
And in this passage He defeated Satan by standing on the ground of a man in His humanity. The Godman Jesus Christ withstood the temptation of Satan and defeated him standing on the ground of a man.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MT 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou SON OF GOD? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
That Matthew 8:29 and many many other verses refer to the Son of God does not mean that Isaiah 9:6 is wrong. And Isaiah 9:6 says that the child born is Mighty God and the Son given is the Eternal Father.
You should believe both passages and embrace in faith all that the Scripture says.
+++++++++++++++++++++++
MT 14:33 Then they that were in the ship came and worshipped him, saying, Of a truth thou art the SON OF GOD.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
Matt. 14:33 does not mean that Matt.23:37 is not true. We believe them both. And in Matthew 23:37 Jesus indicates that He Himself is the Old Testament God Who desired to gather Jerusalem under his wings as a bird cares for her offspring. Compare the passage to Isaiah 31:5 and Deut. 32:11-12.
Proper Christians should embrace all that the Scripture teaches concerning Christ and not use one passage to suppress another.
And of course the Son is addressed as "O God" in Hebrews 1:8 - "But of the Son, Your throne O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom."
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
MT 26:63 But Jesus held his peace. And the high priest answered and said unto him, I adjure thee by the living God, that thou tell us whether thou be the Christ, the SON OF GOD.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
In the experience of the Christians who receive the Son of God we can detect no difference between God in us and Jesus in us. And the Apostle Paul uses these terms in an interchangeable way:
1. The Spirit of God
2. The Spirit of Christ
3. Christ
4. The Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus from the dead.
All these titles are used as equivalent "Persons" and interchangeable Names in this passage:
"But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Yet if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you. (Romans 8:9-11)
The Spirit of God = the Spirit of Christ = Christ = the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead.
All are in the believer. She or he can detect NO experiencial difference.
This completely agrees with Isaiah 9:6 that says the Son given unto us shall be called Eternal Father. When the Son is dispensed into us and is unto us as divine life God is one.
I'll comment on your other passages in another post.
When I say that Jesus is the mingling of God and man I must emphasize that the word mingle is biblical. The word mingle as it refers to the two natures of Jesus comes out of the typology in Leviticus which speaks of the meal offering mingled with oil.
The meal represents the fine and pure humanity of Jesus. And the oil of course represents the Holy Spirit:
"And when you present an offering of a meal offering baked in the oven, it shall be of fine flour, unleavened cakes mingled with oil or unleavened wafers anointed with oil." (Lev. 2:4)
The preparing of the meal offering symbolizes the different kinds of sufferings of Christ. The meal offering itself was the mingling of fine flour with oil signifies Christ's fine humanity mingled with the Holy Spirit (Matt. 1:18) and His human nature mingled with God's divine nature, making Him a God-man.
Christ is both the complete God and the perfect man. He possesses both the divine nature and the human nature distinctly without a third nature being produced.
Through the divine mingling Christ's humanity has been uplifted to the highest standard. In His divinity Christ has the divine attributes, and these divine attributes are expressed through, with, and in His human virtues.
In the meal offering the oil and the fine flour cannot be separated. To eat the fine flour was to eat the oil. The symbolism of Leviticus 2 indicates strongly that the way for people to be nourished by the high humanity of Jesus Christ is by taking into themselves the Holy Spirit (John 6:51,57,63)
The man Jesus as the God-man can be conveyed into people's being by means of the Holy life giving Spirit He is in resurrection:
"the last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45)
And that life giving Spirit is God Himself. So the coming of the life giving Holy Spirit into man is not only the coming of the Holy Spirit but also the coming of the Father and the Son:
" ... If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)
Originally posted by Rajk999I think there is a lot of confusion as to what is meant by being THE Son of God. For example, in John 3:16 we see Christ being THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD and in John 20:31 the author is quoted as saying, "But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE Son of God, and that believing you might have life through his name.
I am definitely not, I assure you. You seem to be trying to judge others. I do not think that whether or not you believe that Christ is God or Christ is the Son of God has any bearing on whether or not you get salvation.
Notice that Jesus is "the only begotten" and Christ is "the Son of God" and not simply "a son of God". What then are the implications for this distinction? In Christ's time the implication was blashpemy and they killed him for it. If being the Son of God did not carry with it that he is divine, why did they accuse him for blasphemy by saying it? Even the Muslims understand the distinction. In fact inscribed in the Dome of the Rock is "la sharika lahu" which means "God has NO companion" and is repeated 5 times and strongly deny's Jesus' sonship to God. So if you and I are "sons of God" what then is the big deal?
Originally posted by whodeyThe big deal is that Jesus was THE SON OF GOD.
I think there is a lot of confusion as to what is meant by being THE Son of God. For example, in John 3:16 we see Christ being THE ONLY BEGOTTEN SON OF GOD and in John 20:31 the author is quoted as saying, "But these are written, that you might believe that Jesus is the Christ, THE Son of God, and that believing you might have life through his name.
Not ...[text shortened]... s' sonship to God. So if you and I are "sons of God" what then is the big deal?
Jesus was NOT God.
They are 2 separate and distinct entities.
How do I know this?
Jesus said so, over and over. No amount of twisting of double meaning scripture and trying to connect verses all over the Bible and complex analysis can change the fact that Jesus said he is the SON. He is NOT the father.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
The big deal is that Jesus was THE SON OF GOD.
Jesus was NOT God.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Christ is the mingling of God and man.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
They are 2 separate and distinct entities.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
The Father and the Son are distinct. They are not separate.
There is distinction. But there is not separation.
++++++++++++++++++++++++
How do I know this?
Jesus said so, over and over. No amount of twisting of double meaning scripture and trying to connect verses all over the Bible and complex analysis can change the fact that Jesus said he is the SON. He is NOT the father.
++++++++++++++++++++++
Jesus taught again and again that there was a distinction between He and the Father. He did not teach that there was a separation between Him and the Father.
He lives in the Father and the Father lives in Him. Some Bible students call this co-inherance. Each of the Triune God lives in the other.
I believe there is distinction. I do not believe there is separation between the Son of God and God.
Originally posted by Rajk999They are distinct but not separate.
SO we agree on something.
They are 2 distinct entities or beings. But they have one purpose and one mind.
I would not go along with any concept which waters down the impact of Isaiah 9:6.
I would not go along with any concept which weakens 2 Cor. 3:17 or 1 Cor. 15:45.
It is very mysterious. But some of us always want to let the Bible speak what it speaks the way it speaks it without preference. We should just say Amen to what it says the way it says it.