Questions for Deification Deniers

@ghost-of-a-duke said
He's taking you towards deification as though painting by numbers.

I’m up for the ride be not seen this before

@sonship said
Was Jesus the first human being to be raised from the dead ?

The first to rise from the dead, never to die again.

Quit blowing smoke up everyone's arsses.

@josephw said

Quit blowing smoke up everyone's arsses.

Time for bed Josephw

@divegeester said
Time for bed Josephw

Yes daddy.

I could be wrong but didn’t he raise Lazarus up first ?

You are quite right. And PB1022 has acknowledged this. So Jesus Christ being called "the Firstborn from thre dead" must mean something more that that He was the first man raised from the dead.

I have to catch up now to PB1022 responses.

@sonship said

I could be wrong but didn’t he raise Lazarus up first ?

You are quite right. And PB1022 has acknowledged this. So Jesus Christ being called "the Firstborn from thre dead" must mean something more that that He was the first man raised from the dead.

I have to catch up now to PB1022 responses.

That's what I said.

The first to be raised never to die again.

All others died again.

Too simple.

@sonship said

I could be wrong but didn’t he raise Lazarus up first ?

You are quite right. And PB1022 has acknowledged this. So Jesus Christ being called "the Firstborn from thre dead" must mean something more that that He was the first man raised from the dead.

I have to catch up now to PB1022 responses.

I don’t know that Lazarus was the first to be raised from the dead. I honestly don’t know the chronological order among Lazarus, Jairus’ 12-year-old daughter and the widow of Nain’s son.

But people were raised from the dead in the Old Testament too (by God, of course, working through prophets. I believe one was raised by Elijah the prophet who had lived with (or been fed by, I can’t remember which) a widow, and the one he raised was the widow’s son.

But Jesus Christ was the first to have a different body when He was Resurrected, though it still bore the crucifixion wounds on His hands and the wound on His side.

Thinking logically, He would have to have a different body since He was scourged to within an inch of His life before He was crucified.

@pb1022 said
I don’t know that Lazarus was the first to be raised from the dead. I honestly don’t know the chronological order among Lazarus, Jairus’ 12-year-old daughter and the widow of Nain’s son.

But people were raised from the dead in the Old Testament too (by God, of course, working through prophets. I believe one was raised by Elijah the prophet who had lived with (or been fed by ...[text shortened]... o have a different body since He was scourged to within an inch of His life before He was crucified.

It was the same body. Not a different body.

@PB1022

It’s not up to me to say whether you’re blaspheming. That’s between you and God.

Okay.
Agreed.

But you didn’t address the Scriptures from Hebrews I cited, about Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry, being “a little lower than the angels” and after His crucifixion and Resurrection being “so much better than the angels” and God the Father calling Jesus “God.”

Let me make bold where I encountered a QUESTION, Okay?

That’s a good question. If you’re asking, and I think you are, whether Jesus Christ now is the same as He was during His earthly ministry - fully human and fully God - I say, No, based on Hebrews saying He, during his earthly ministry, had been made “a little lower than the angels” to “taste death for every man” but, after His Resurrection, He is described as being “so much better than the angels” and God the Father calls Him “God.”
. . .
I don’t accept your premise - that Jesus is a glorified Man for the reasons stated above, though I may have others after I think about it a while.
. . .
If Jesus was “fully God and fully man” during His earthly ministry, as I think many Christians, including myself believe, do you think He maintains that status of fully God and fully man right now?

I only see a question mark here in the bolded part.
The answer to that question is that I believe Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man for eternity, forever, from now on, in perpetuity.

Now we have Jesus in incarnation and Jesus in resurrection.

My question to you now is about Jesus in resurrection.

When the word of God says to us " . . . we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. " (1 John 3:2)

In which way do you take this:
1.) We will be like Him because we will see Him even as He WAS (before resurrection)?

Or

2.) We will be like Him because we will see Him even as He IS as a glorified, resurrected man?

We will be like He WAS or we will be like He IS?

( still being friendly )

Did His death and Resurrection not change that status?

He incarnated and became like us.
But in resurrection He on that day was begotten the Firstborn Son of God in
resurrection.

He was fully God.
He became fully God and fully man.
He rose taking back to the throne of God for eternity fully God and fully
MAN.

His status as Firstborn of all creation is retained.
His status as Firstborn from the dead is the status He picked up upon His
resurrection.

I believe that "we will be like Him . . . even as He is" means we will be like
Him as the glorified God-man in resurrection.

What He did to humanity in His resurrection is what we will follow Him to be.
In this regard JESUS is truly JOSHUA leading MANY sons into glory.

"For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and through whom are all things, in leading many sons into glory, to make the Author [ or Captian, Originator, Inaugurator, Leader, Pioneer] of their salvation perfect through suffering." (Hebrews 1:10)

I stop here. We'll look at the matter again. What He IS He like Joshua is leading His [people into as Joshua led the children of Israel into the promise land of Canaan. He is leading many sons into the glorious expression of the uplifted and deified humanity in resurrection.

PB1022,

As for your citation of Hebrews 13:8, I’ve never taken that to refer to Jesus’ status but to His intangible qualities of justice, mercy, faithfulness, etc.

I do not think we will be like Him excludes these attributes.

But these are expressions of the life. And the life, the eternal life
is now our life.

We were "alienated from the life of God" (Eph. 4:18)
From this divine life we who have received Christ are no longer alienated from
the life of God. The life is ours. And the life is God's life.

@josephw said
It was the same body. Not a different body.

It was not the same body. It had no blood. It had no wounds beyond the crucifixion wounds on His hands and the wound on His side.

If it were still a human body, it would be subject to infection, decay, etc., not to mention the wounds from the scourging and crown of thorns.

It was an immortal body, not a mortal body, which is what human beings have.

You think Jesus Christ is in Heaven right now with a 2,000-year-old human body?

@sonship said
@PB1022

It’s not up to me to say whether you’re blaspheming. That’s between you and God.

Okay.
Agreed.

[quote]
But you didn’t address the Scriptures from Hebrews I cited, about Jesus Christ, during His earthly ministry, being “a little lower than the angels” and after His crucifixion and Resurrection being “so much better than the angels” ...[text shortened]... many sons into the glorious expression of the uplifted and deified humanity in resurrection.

<<I only see a question mark here in the bolded part.>>

Ok, well then let me ask what I raised earlier in the form of a question:

How do you reconcile what Hebrews says about Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry (“a little lower than the angels” to “taste death for every man&rdquo😉 and what Hebrews says about Jesus after His crucifixion and Resurrection (“so much better than the angels” and God the Father addressing Jesus as “God&rdquo😉 with your view that Jesus maintains the same status now that He had during His earthly ministry?

<<The answer to that question is I believe Jesus Christ is fully God and fully man for
eternity, forever, from now on, in perpetuity.>>

I disagree with you. Jesus Christ is no longer in human flesh. He is in a Resurrected immortal body, as I believe Christians will have based on what the Apostle Paul has written. But I do not believe our “status” in our Resurrected immortal bodies will be the same as Jesus’ status. How could it be, when Philippians 2:10 says, “That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;”

<<Now we have Jesus in incarnation and Jesus in resurrection.

My question to you now is agbouty Jesus in resurrection.

When the word of God says to us " . . . we will be like Him because we will see Him even as He is. " (1 John 3:2)

In which way to you take this:
[b]1.) We will be like Him because we will see Him even as He WAS (before resurrection)?

Or

2.) We will be like Him becasue we will see Him even as He IS as a glorified, resurrected man?

We will be like He WAS or we will be like He IS?

( still being friendly )>>

Not sure what you mean about “still being friendly.” If you can’t disagree on beliefs or doctrine without being unfriendly, then I think you are insecure in your position or possibly have a problem not related to doctrine.

I think 1 John 3:2 means we will have knowledge of Him and knowledge He possesses - not that our status or station will be the same as His.

Look at this verse:

“Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.”

(1 John 4:17)

Do you think this verse is saying we are equal to Jesus, right now in this world, in terms of status and position?

I think it would be helpful for you to clarify the distinction between your belief that Christians in Heaven will not be like Jesus Christ in terms of the Trinity but will be like him in other respects.

I think clarifying this would go a long way toward reducing confusion about what you believe and are asserting.

I fully agree we will not be like Jesus Christ in terms of the Trinity but I’m not sure what you’re saying when you reference or suggest we will be like (presumably share the status and position of) Him in other ways.

@PB1022


Let me preface my comments with what I have written here for many years over again up front.

Those saved by Christ will share only the communicable attributes of God and not the noncummunincable attributes of God.
We will never be an object of worship.
We will never be Creators of universes.
We will never be omniscient, omnipotent, or omnipresent.
We will never be having always been in eternity past.
We will never have the position as the Head of the Body of Christ.
We will never have the Fatherhood as the Source of eternal life.

There are probably other attributes.
We will never be the Godhead.

Now I will go on if I can to your comparison of Hebrews 2:7,9 with Hebrews 1:4. The point you are making here is not completely apparent to me yet.

Hebrews 1:4 - "Having become as much better than the angels as to have inherited a more distinguished name than they."

Hebrews 2:9 - "But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honor, so that by the grace of God He might taste death on behalf of everything." (RcV)

verse 7 - "You have made Him a little inferior to the angels"

Cont. below

How do you reconcile what Hebrews says about Jesus Christ during His earthly ministry (“a little lower than the angels” to “taste death for every man&rdquo and what Hebrews says about Jesus after His crucifixion and Resurrection (“so much better than the angels” and God the Father addressing Jesus as “God&rdquo ... with your view that Jesus maintains the same status now that He had during His earthly ministry?

I removed the emojis which distract me so I can understand your question.

First of all I believe the status of Jesus after resurrection is something more than His status as on His earthly ministry. Maybe you can indicate why you thought there was no change in His status, IF that is what you believe I stated.

I'll wait for that evidence if you have something.

Still not sure what you're getting at completely. But Hebrews as you know shows that Jesus is more important than a number of people or matters in the Hebrew Bible. Ie. angels, Moses, Aaron, etc.

The first comparison the writer makes is to the angels. In speaking of the superiority of Christ the writer first addresses in 1:4 - 2:18 His supriority to the angels.

Heb. 1:5 argues that to no angel did God ever say he was is Son.
But to Christ God did say this (a number of times).

Heb. 2:7,9 argues that in incarnation the Son of God (who is God) was made so that He could suffer death. 'But we see Jesus, who was made a little inferior to the angels because of the suffering of death . . . " (v.9)

He has a name better than any and all of the angels who are after all ministering spirits, sent forth for service for the sake of those who are to inherit salvation." (v.14)

Before incarnation, during incarnation, after incarnation, from eternity past to eternity future - the Son has a superior and more distinguished name than ANY angel.

He is God Himself as is proved beyond any possible way to contradict from verses 8 - 13. Especially (but not only) the quotation Psalm 102:25-27

And, "You in the beginning, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the works of Your hands; They will perish, You will roll them up; like a garment they will also be changed; but You are the same, and Your years will not fail"

Jesus is Jehovah God the eternal Creator become a man who was able to die. And He is now at the right hand of God more distinguished than any angel.

"But to which of the angels has He ever said, "Sit at My right hand until I set Your enemies as a footstool for Your feet? Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth for service . . . etc. etc" (v.13)

I stop here and re-think about what point you are making about this comparison to Jesus Christ and the myriads of angels God has created.