Questions for Deification Deniers

@sonship said
@Ghost-of-a-Duke

Perhaps ponder some on the words of Christians who have openly charged you with blasphemy.

What makes you think I haven't pondered? I pondered before they wrote.

They can always (and anyone else) go back and read the exchanges.

Live on in the past are you ?

When not a single Christian agrees with your deification nonsense and openly accuses you of blasphemy it would probably be worth taking a while to consider if perhaps you have indeed completely lost the plot.

Saints, why do you think Jesus told the disciples to hold on speaking of His transfiguration on the mountain in Matthew 16:28 - 17:9 ?

Its an interesting question.

After He totally shined with the Shekineh glory of God like the radiant sun -

"And when they lifted up their eues, they saw no one exept Jesus alone. And as they were coiing down from the mountain, Jesus commanded them, saying, Tell the vision to no one until the Son of Man is raised from the dead." (vs. 8,9)

Christ's Need For Transfiguration: excepts from Life Study of Luke by Witness Lee.
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The Greek word rendered “transfigured” in Matthew 17:2 is the same as that translated “transformed” in Mark 9:2; 2 Corinthians 3:18; and Romans 12:2. The same Greek word is used also in Philippians 3:21. The point here is that for the enjoyment of the jubilee we need transfiguration, transformation.

The Man-Savior in the flesh needed transfiguration because He was in the likeness of the flesh of sin, the likeness of the flesh of fallen man (Rom. 8:3). Just as the brass serpent on the pole had the form of a serpent but not the poisonous nature of a serpent (Num. 21:8-9), so the Lord Jesus in the flesh had the likeness of the flesh of sin but not the nature of the flesh of sin (John 3:14). When He became flesh, He took on the form of the old man. Man had already become fallen when the Lord Jesus became flesh. He became flesh long after man's fall, coming in the likeness of the flesh of sin. John 1:1 and 14 indicate that the Word, which was God, became flesh. In Paul's words in 1 Timothy 3:16, this was a matter of God manifested in the flesh. Because the Lord Jesus, God incarnate, came in the flesh, even He was in need of transfiguration.
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Read more at https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=3401DDC0C6

Read it again.
Then read on here.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=3401DDC0C6

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The New Testament age is the age of the jubilee. However, this is not yet the time of the full application of the jubilee. The full application of the jubilee involves transfiguration. Do you know when the Savior was transfigured in full? He was fully transfigured in His resurrection. The transfiguration on the mountain was on a small scale. But when the Lord was resurrected from among the dead, He was fully transfigured. He now remains in this state of transfiguration. According to Philippians 3:21, when He comes back, we all shall be transfigured.
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Presently our transformation, or transfiguration, is taking place in our soul. Our spirit has been regenerated, and our soul is being transformed. A matured believer is one who has been fully transformed in his soul, that is, transformed in his mind, will, and emotion. Such a believer only needs his physical body to be transfigured at the coming of the transfigured Savior. This transfiguration of the body is called the redemption of the body by Paul in Romans 8:23. The redemption of the body is also the entering into the liberty of the glory of the children of God. Paul's word in Romans 8 indicates that although we are in the jubilee today, we are not yet in the jubilee in a full way. When our body has been fully redeemed, fully transfigured and transformed, then we shall be brought into the freedom of the glory of the children of God, and that will be the jubilee in full.
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My bolding there.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
When not a single Christian agrees with your deification nonsense and openly accuses you of blasphemy it would probably be worth taking a while to consider if perhaps you have indeed completely lost the plot.

Whew! Read through this whole thread again. Now I don't know what to say, but I'll say it anyway. 🙃

Just to set the record straight, I can't find a reference where I "accused" sonship of blasphemy. I did however find where I said this: "It is a blasphemy to say "God said" when He didn't say it at all." Page 4, 4th post.

I know, or am as certain as I can be, that sonship believes the gospel of Jesus Christ, and would never intentionally blaspheme the word of God. I think sonship is in error concerning deification.

Possibly one could say it's heretical, but I don't think sonship is doing that either. I think it's a stretch, and a bad one at that, to say that all the verses that sonship uses as proof texts to support the assertion that believers are deified is, or can be, characterized as hyper-spiritualizing.

If sonship is correct in his interpretation, then I'll have no choice in the matter; I will be "deified" whether I like it or not. 🤷🏻‍♂️

I'm not comfortable with the thought, at least as far as I understand what "deification" implies.

1 John 3:2
Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.

According to John it doesn't "appear" now, or yet, "what we shall be", but when Jesus "shall appear", then "we shall be like him".

"For we shall see him as he is". Interesting!

@sonship said
A bump for someone to offer an explanation.

On the mount of transfiguration Jesus was suddenly glorified with supernatural splendor only briefly for the witnessing of three of His closest disciples. Then His glory was concealed again. He commanded them NOT to mention the incident before He rose from the dead.

Why do you think that is?

============================= ...[text shortened]... ] "until the Son of man is raised from the dead?" [/b]
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Mark 9:9
¶ And as they came down from the mountain, he charged them that they should tell no man what things they had seen, till the Son of man were risen from the dead.

Matthew 17:9
¶ And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

ek nekros - risen "out from among the dead".

Verse 10 of Mark chapter nine, "And they kept that saying with themselves, questioning one with another what the rising from the dead should mean".

The Jews knew about "resurrection", but the idea of being raised "out from among the dead" was a new idea they were unfamiliar with, which was why Jesus' disciples, Peter, John and James, questioned what Jesus meant.

They didn't know what Jesus meant, therefore Jesus instructed them not to talk about what they had witnessed on the mountain until after Jesus was raised "out from among the dead".

The full theological implications and understanding of all that is above my pay grade.

@josephw said
Whew! Read through this whole thread again. Now I don't know what to say, but I'll say it anyway. 🙃

Just to set the record straight, I can't find a reference where I "accused" sonship of blasphemy. I did however find where I said this: "It is a blasphemy to say "God said" when He didn't say it at all." Page 4, 4th post.

I know, or am as certain as I can be, that sonship ...[text shortened]... Jesus "shall appear", then "we shall be like him".

"For we shall see him as he is". Interesting!

I agree, sonship is in error in regards to his deification claims.

Does blasphemy need to be intentional? Are blasphemous words negated by being misguided? Is that how blasphemy works? Are you sure?!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Does blasphemy need to be intentional? Are blasphemous words negated by being misguided? Is that how blasphemy works? Are you sure?!

Im not sure how it works.

Objectively speaking I don't think it matters whether it's done intentionally or not. Blasphemy is blasphemy.

Subjectively speaking I think God judges the heart, and only God can see the heart.

I think we should be careful not to slander. Speaking for myself.

@josephw said
Im not sure how it works.

Objectively speaking I don't think it matters whether it's done intentionally or not. Blasphemy is blasphemy.

Subjectively speaking I think God judges the heart, and only God can see the heart.

I think we should be careful not to slander. Speaking for myself.

Slander is small potatoes. There is bigger fish to fry here. I think it is more critical not to get caught up with those who promote blasphemous doctrines

@rajk999 said
I think it is more critical not to get caught up with those who promote blasphemous doctrines

Then you better ignore yourself.

@josephw said

I think we should be careful not to slander. Speaking for myself.

Does that include accusing other Christians who you don’t approve of “enemies of God”?

@josephw said
Im not sure how it works.

Objectively speaking I don't think it matters whether it's done intentionally or not. Blasphemy is blasphemy.

Subjectively speaking I think God judges the heart, and only God can see the heart.

I think we should be careful not to slander. Speaking for myself.

Again I agree, blasphemy is blasphemy whether intentional or not. So, 'objectively,' in proclaiming he will become divine, sonship can rightly be said to be speaking blasphemously.

@josephw

The Jews knew about "resurrection", but the idea of being raised "out from among the dead" was a new idea they were unfamiliar with, which was why Jesus' disciples, Peter, John and James, questioned what Jesus meant.

They didn't know what Jesus meant, therefore Jesus instructed them not to talk about what they had witnessed on the mountain until after Jesus was raised "out from among the dead".

Thanks for you thoughts on that.
See? No bludgeoning into submission for having a viewpoint.

I'd like to think on it for a spell and pray over it as well.