03 Jan 10
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Originally posted by FreakyKBHMy authentic lifestyle, my accurate representation of the truth will be the most effective tools in allowing someone else to see the truth--- not my ability to tell them the difference between the fakes they're holding and my good money.
[b]... it is already readily apparent to me that there is much enrichment to glean from the study of religion, quite apart from evangelism or apologetics.
Agreed.
That ended Paul’s discussion with them, but some joined him and became believers" (Acts 17:32-33).
And the sense that I get from this part is that the whole endeavor was not met w ...[text shortened]... ell them the difference between the fakes they're holding and my good money.
Time is short![/b]
You know, I agree with you wholeheartedly here. This is kind of what I was getting at in my original post. What is the proper way to live as a Christian in a multi-religious context (and I should have added) without compromising a single Christian truth? It is how one lives which defines him, not what one says. The authenticity of your Christian walk is the only advertisement necessary in order for you to successfully evangelize the circumference of your influence in this world. But your influence involves relationships, and like it or not we must develop relationships with people who sincerely believe radically different than we do.
What if you were to invite a Muslim to dinner and failed to take into consideration when you prepared the meal that he doesn't eat pork? Pork chops are the main course, and he is forced to kindly refuse. Yes, perhaps he'd forgive your ignorance gracefully at the table, but perhaps wonder later if your choice of meats was in fact meant to be an inhospitable, offensive gesture. Where a relationship could have sprouted, now there is only distrust. If you were familiar with his faith to begin with, then that appearance of evil could have been avoided altogether.
This is just a generic example of the potential dangers of not being familiar with our friends' and neighbors' religious beliefs. I'm quite sure you'd have prepared a Muslim-approved meal. 🙂 My point is that having an understanding and appreciation for what others believe isn't about having more tools with which to evangelize, but instead it is a sign of respect for the people who hold those beliefs. This is conducive to relationship. When the President travels abroad he has to be highly aware of the customs and beliefs of the countries he visits so as not to offend. He does this in order to create goodwill by showing respect, otherwise his hosts will probably not listen to him at all, and if they do, grudgingly and with deaf ears.
I hope you see my point.
03 Jan 10
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Originally posted by vistesdAre you really that utterly contemptuous of any religious view but your own?
[b]Bully for you, but I wouldn't dream of even feigning interest in what I consider to be...
Anything other than Christianity (I would say “your understanding of Christianity”, but that would seem redundant in context) is no more than “crap from a sewer” and beneath your even feigning interest? Interesting: at first blush, a kind of a priori her than ask you: are you really that utterly contemptuous of any religious view but your own?[/b]
Way to paint me into a corner, v! Kind of hard to backpedal from that position, now isn't it?
Well, I'll give it a shot. I take rc's position to mean that we should be reconciliatory in our approach as it relates to our beliefs--- almost as though he is suggesting that we ought to mix a little of this with a little of that and somehow find a common ground somewhere in the middle. Otherwise, why the insistence for compassion (at least, how he is suggesting it be employed), the respect and etc., as it relates to the belief aspects?
In opposition to this stance--- playing the game as though the belief systems are all on equal playing ground--- is a compassion and respect that is borne out of an understanding that every man is made in the image of God. Clearly, none of us think that any other belief system is more preferred (true) than our own, although there are some who take a very pragmatic point of view, resigning each to hold their own since 'it works for him.'
Such a pragmatic viewpoint is wrong. It appears to be respectful toward others, but it could only be such if its core belief, i.e., that all beliefs lead to the same conclusion, were true. As you fully are aware from your earlier walk in life, Christianity stands in stark and total contrast to that point of view.
As stated, if I am respectful toward another, it is because of my understanding that we are made in God's image. I am patient with another in a religion hostile to the Gospel (and they all are), not out of patronization, but from a consideration that we're all trying to do the best we can--- until we prove otherwise. The presentation of the Gospel isn't a 'yes, but' proposition, a lip-service acknowledgment that the other's religion is valid but we have something that will really take it up a notch for them. That type of consumer-based sales isn't what the presentation of the Gospel is about.
Neither is the presentation supposed to be 'hey, you! your beliefs are crud, so listen to this, you big smelly piece of you-know-what.' Again, a Christian's patience comes from a desire to reconcile that which is lost (the relation) back to its intended original state... emphatically not the opposing beliefs, however.
03 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasI agree with your points as they relate to our ambassador-type obligations. Again, it is our respect for others where they are informed by our understanding that all are made in the image of God that leads to such a stance of consideration--- not an equation of our beliefs.
My authentic lifestyle, my accurate representation of the truth will be the most effective tools in allowing someone else to see the truth--- not my ability to tell them the difference between the fakes they're holding and my good money.
You know, I agree with you wholeheartedly here. This is kind of what I was getting at in my original post. Wh ...[text shortened]... o him at all, and if they do, grudgingly and with deaf ears.
I hope you see my point.[/b]
People will pick up on whether or not we are authentically concerned about them, or if we're out scalping, so I also think there is a certain amount of room that we give the foreigners in our midst.
03 Jan 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHWow that really smacks off eliteism . Or fundamentalism?.
[b]Are you really that utterly contemptuous of any religious view but your own?
Way to paint me into a corner, v! Kind of hard to backpedal from that position, now isn't it?
Well, I'll give it a shot. I take rc's position to mean that we should be reconciliatory in our approach as it relates to our beliefs--- almost as though he is suggesting tha ...[text shortened]... to its intended original state... emphatically not the opposing beliefs, however.[/b]
Well that could be good for you..The charge of elitism has been leveled at the "family" of Zen masters and their "authority".
03 Jan 10
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Originally posted by epiphinehasthe statement stands Epi, for he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer', and that a gun-hoe basketball approach is the way to conduct a public ministry as an emissary substituting for Christ. Does that strike you as Christ like? does that strike you as someone who is displaying love? who is empathetic? who is interested in humanity? how can any such a person with a demeanour like that claim any connection with Christ? you must tell me, for at this moment in time, it is quite beyond me.
[b]If Christ was truly in you people, you would be embroiled in humanity, not living, despite it, my friend.
Whoa, take it down a notch. There's no need to condemn anyone here, we're just having a discussion. Here you are berating Freaky about the merits of being 'embroiled' in humanity, yet you're actively creating divisions right here in this demn.
I think you both make valid points, which is why this subject is so difficult.[/b]
how are we to bind up the broken hearted with messages like 'you offspring of vipers', please you must elucidate?
how are we to proclaim ' a year of good will on the part of our God with, 'your beliefs are crap from the sewer', please you must tell me?
03 Jan 10
3 edits
Originally posted by FreakyKBHI am patient with another in a religion hostile to the Gospel (and they all are)...
[b]Are you really that utterly contemptuous of any religious view but your own?
Way to paint me into a corner, v! Kind of hard to backpedal from that position, now isn't it?
Well, I'll give it a shot. I take rc's position to mean that we should be reconciliatory in our approach as it relates to our beliefs--- almost as though he is suggesting tha to its intended original state... emphatically not the opposing beliefs, however.[/b]
There are points of irreconcilable difference between Christianity and other belief systems, no doubt. Whether this makes them 'hostile' to Christianity, though, is debatable. Hinduism, for instance, sees Christianity as a beautiful example of bhakti yoga, i.e., a way to God through love. You're not going to find much hostility from Hindus; the hostility would have to be supplied solely by you. That's just one example.
The presentation of the Gospel isn't a 'yes, but' proposition, a lip-service acknowledgment that the other's religion is valid but we have something that will really take it up a notch for them. That type of consumer-based sales isn't what the presentation of the Gospel is about.
But there are valid aspects to other religions; legitimate wisdom. I would go so far as to say that there is wisdom to be found in other religions that would actually expand and enrich your spiritual life, even as a Christian.
Apart from that, there are indeed certain spiritual truths Christianity shares with other faiths. Authors like Thomas Merton have elucidated this fact at great length (a fact all but ignored by Christian fundamentalism). The Christian classic, The Cloud of Unknowing, is rife with wisdom shared with eastern mystics, yet drawn directly from the word of God. Even the early church fathers practiced a form of mysticism in order to gain a more immediate experience of God and affirm theological assertions, among them St. Augustine.
What does make Christianity utterly unique, though, is the Empty Tomb. The Resurrection is the basis for any "yes, but" presentation of the Gospel. And in some instances just such a presentation of the Gospel is absolutely relevant. Yes, other religions have founders who were undoubtedly great and wise men, but all of them remain in the grave - only Jesus rose from the dead. That historical fact, bolstered by reliable testimony written within the lifetimes of the witnesses to Christ's earthly ministry, and countless other corroborating evidences, is definitely a solid basis for a legitimate presentation of the Gospel to those of different faiths.
03 Jan 10
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieno answer Epi? yes you are correct, the position is inexcusable, i wouldn't touch it either!
the statement stands Epi, for he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer', and that a gun-hoe basketball approach is the way to conduct a public ministry as an emissary substituting for Christ. Does that strike you as Christ like? does that strike you as some he part of our God with, 'your beliefs are crap from the sewer', please you must tell me?
04 Jan 10
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Originally posted by epiphinehasHmm. Preach the gospel without offending anyone. Is this even possible Biblically? My thinking is, the only cats who came after Christ were the "religious". In short, he exposed their hypocrisy and their lack of love for their fellow man. In short, all you can do is tell it like it is and let the chips fall where they may.
I'd like to broach the difficult subject (from a Christian's perspective anyway) of comparative religion.
As a Christian I believe that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). I know there are many in these forums who would take issue with Christ's declaration and that's fi ndoning belief in a religion other than Christianity? I believe, yes.
Any thoughts?
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasMatthew 5:16 - Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.
I'd like to broach the difficult subject (from a Christian's perspective anyway) of comparative religion.
As a Christian I believe that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life, and that no one comes to the Father except through Him (John 14:6). I know there are many in these forums who would take issue with Christ's declaration and that's fi ...[text shortened]... ndoning belief in a religion other than Christianity? I believe, yes.
Any thoughts?
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by robbie carrobiefor he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer'
the statement stands Epi, for he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer', and that a gun-hoe basketball approach is the way to conduct a public ministry as an emissary substituting for Christ. Does that strike you as Christ like? does that strike you as some ...[text shortened]... he part of our God with, 'your beliefs are crap from the sewer', please you must tell me?
The only thing more clueless than your grasp on spiritual matters is your grasp on reality. Either that or your deplorable use of the English language.
I have no righteousness outside of Christ; therefore no self-righteousness from which to come down.
and that a gun-hoe basketball approach is the way to conduct a public ministry as an emissary substituting for Christ.
You are obviously attempting to equate Wooden's philosophical approach to game preparation with the emotional appeal to work together, or better known as the term, gung ho.
Again, you are tripped up by your naive perspective on life. You've never heard of the Wooden Pyramid, or you would know that his approach to a game of basketball was a small picture of his approach to life.
Philosophically speaking, he understood that to do one's best, one must be true to what one holds to be true--- not try to adopt or adapt to the thoughts of another. That you fail to see the wisdom in such an approach is not surprising. After all, you will apply certain 'approved' human viewpoint thinking to your considerations, but not others, yet you have no standard by which to judge which of them you will endorse, other than your most recent conversation.
I know you are very eager to judge the fruit of my spiritual life, but you're not even at the point where you can even determine what the spiritual life is, let alone how I am playing the game.
how are we to bind up the broken hearted with messages like 'you offspring of vipers', please you must elucidate?
Indeed, how are you going to reconcile the words of the Lord Jesus Christ with your evidently much more important agenda?
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHsorry i read the first few words and could take no more, i leave you to your example of compassion!
[b]for he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer'
The only thing more clueless than your grasp on spiritual matters is your grasp on reality. Either that or your deplorable use of the English language.
I have no righteousness outside of Christ; therefore no ...[text shortened]... ile the words of the Lord Jesus Christ with your evidently much more important agenda?[/b]
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by epiphinehasI would have thought Christians ought to treat the people with different belief systems as if they might be right and Christians might be wrong. Isn't faith all about maintaining an open heart? And isn't one of the most amazing human qualities our ability to maintain an open mind? Isn't humility virtue?
What I'm interested in is how a Christian is supposed to treat people who ascribe to a different belief system.
04 Jan 10
Originally posted by FreakyKBHOf course the Zen masters never carried on for as long as you in this vein.
[b]for he has condescended from his throne of self righteousness to publicly state, that he considers others beliefs as 'crap from the sewer'
The only thing more clueless than your grasp on spiritual matters is your grasp on reality. Either that or your deplorable use of the English language.
I have no righteousness outside of Christ; therefore no ...[text shortened]... ile the words of the Lord Jesus Christ with your evidently much more important agenda?[/b]