Permanent Members of Christ's Royal Family

Originally posted by RJHinds
That seems to describe the way FMF feels about it.

You are mistaken. I do not subscribe to any of the conflicting claims that Christians are making on this thread regarding "salvation" and Christ. I am simply responding to assertions that have been made about me, here on this thread and on threads elsewhere. No part of the bible can be said "to describe the way [I] feel about [the concept of "salvation"]."

What I am interested in, however, are the contradictions and incoherence of the various versions of the doctrine ~ and also, to a degree, the apparent reticence of some Christians to debate each other directly on this key aspect of their belief. You, for example, appear to be unable [for some unclear reason] to address or confront the 'theology' that FreakyKBH is propagating here even though it differs from yours fundamentally.

Originally posted by FMF
Is the difference between your theology and that being espoused here by FreakyKBH and Grampy Bobby "unimportant", as Kelly Jay seems to be saying.

What I believe is important to me, but whether or not it is important to KellyJay, FreakyKBH, and Grampy Bobby is up to them.

Originally posted by RJHinds
What I believe is important to me, but whether or not it is important to KellyJay, FreakyKBH, and Grampy Bobby is up to them.

Well, actually, my question was not about whether you feel what you declare to be important is indeed important to you, but instead what I am asking is whether the difference between your theology and theirs is "unimportant" in terms of Christian theology. Your reluctance to debate them and instead make your remarks to a non-Christian is fascinating.

[1] Can "a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family", after dying, be tortured in agony by burning flames for eternity?

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
1. Nope.

* Bump for Grampy Bobby *

So "unbelievers" ~ like me ~ are saved alongside "believers"?

This contradicts statements about "unbelievers" and "eternal torture" that you have made on this forum many times.

Originally posted by Rajk999
The same way the Bible does not mention 'Trinity' and you correctly reject using that expression, then in like manner your analysis about being born into a family is not applicable.

The idea of Trinity omits much of what is said of God and Christ. You are making the same mistake. You omit much of what is said about being born again or obtaining salvation

I wasn't trying to preach the gospel my friend, just to cast a different perspective on the truth which is once you are his "nothing can you deliver you out of his hand" (scripture somewhere).

In the case of FMF the challenge he has is what all of us have when we are away from God -- was I ever in, in the first place!

Originally posted by FMF
I do not believe that there exists a "gift" for me to accept or reject. I do not believe the claims Christians make about "the work of the Lord Jesus Christ done on the Cross". I am ~ in Christian terms ~ an "unbeliever". Grampy Bobby knows this full well and yet he has told me that [1] as an "unbeliever" I will, after death, be trapped in burning fires for all ...[text shortened]... ause I am "a permanent member of Christ's Royal Family". These two things contradict each other.

Is this thread about Grampy bobby or your seeking a wider expression of the truth. It is my belief that what Grampy bobby and many other people believe about the consequences of unbelief is wrong. Completely wrong. I.e. There is not eternity outside of the presence of God, therefore eternal suffering is not possible. Also the notion is catholic/medieval and anti-Christ in its core.

You personally are either saved, or not saved right. What does that depend on? You? Your efforts? No it depends entirely on the grace of god. However I believe each and every person gets an opportunity to respond to the seed that is planted within us. As in the parable of the sower. Let's say you respond and that the life is within you but you fall away for a period. That period could be a hour or many years. Are you for that hour suddenly not a member of the family you are born I to? does god suddenly cease to be your father? no of course not. However when we are in a place away from God we have no sense of that security, we live in unbelief and hardness of heart.

I could look at you and say FMF is not saved, he is in unbelief. Or, I could look at you and say FMF has fallen away but god will deal with him and bring him back because he is his. The thing is, neither you nor I know which you are and it is not my place or anyone else's to judge.

The matter is between you and the living god.

Originally posted by KellyJay
I accept that you claimed it, but never really walked with God. Had you
really walked with Him you would never be able to deny Him.
Kelly

Not sure I agree with that Kelly, see Freaky's point about Peter a few posts above your one.

Originally posted by divegeester
In the case of FMF the challenge he has is what all of us have when we are away from God -- was I ever in, in the first place!

Surely this is nothing more than a [politer] variant of Kelly Jay's deliberately personalized and tangential "So you are lying now!" gambit which he is using to evade answering the theological question I was asking him. He'd rather go for the "So you are lying now!" thing than break ranks with Christians he presumably disagrees with on this fundamental issue of salvation. I find it fascinating.

I take you at your word when you claim that you are a Christian, divegeester. I take Kelly Jay at his word when he claims to be a Christian. It is fascinating that you cannot take me at my word. It seems your theology ~ like Kelly Jay's ~ relies on something to the effect of the "So you are lying now!" cop out. Some of you Christians on this thread are behaving exactly the same way as galveston75 and robbie carrobie used to when they each made assertions that contradicted each other. They could not bring themselves to break ranks, and just started to "play the man" instead. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
Well, actually, my question was not about whether you feel what you declare to be important is indeed important to you, but instead what I am asking is whether the difference between your theology and theirs is "unimportant" in terms of Christian theology. Your reluctance to debate them and instead make your remarks to a non-Christian is fascinating.

I stated my belief and opinion as clear as I could. I am not reluctant to debate anyone. If they wish to debate me, I will surely reply. However, I see no reason to cause discord among fellow Christian believers by antagonizing them on such an issue as this.

Originally posted by divegeester
Let's say you respond and that the life is within you but you fall away for a period. That period could be a hour or many years. Are you for that hour suddenly not a member of the family you are born I to? does god suddenly cease to be your father? no of course not.

I have no convincing reason to believe any of your assertions about a "father" and a "family". I don't see how you insisting your beliefs have an impact on the reality of my life and eventual death is any different from Dasa insisting that beliefs have an impact on the reality of my life and eventual death. You are simply superimposing stuff onto me just as he does.

Grampy Bobby claims that I will gain eternal life even though I am an "unbeliever"; at other times he has claimed that I will burn in hell for being an "unbeliever". FreakyKBH ~ I think ~ is claiming that I am still, somehow, a "believer" because I cannot "un-believe". Kelly Jay is telling me I am "lying". RJHinds seems out of his depth without YouTube clips and unable to enter into a debate with fellow Christians putting forward these contradictory doctrines. robbie carrobie popped in and squirted out a speculative attempted put down. All we need now is sonship to come along and ask me, a non-Christian, "Have you eaten Jesus today?". Quite frankly, you all sound like you're just making stuff up as you go along. 🙂

Originally posted by FMF
Surely this is nothing more than a [politer] variant of Kelly Jay's deliberately personalized and tangential "So you are lying now!" gambit which he is using to evade answering the theological question I was asking him. He'd rather go for the "So you are lying now!" thing than break ranks with Christians he presumably disagrees with on this fundamental issue of ...[text shortened]... . They could not bring themselves to break ranks, and just started to "play the man" instead. 🙂

Firstly I will ignore your somewhat obvious flame comparing me to the JWs and stick to the point. Secondly I don't need to break ranks with any Christian here because as my posting over the years demonstrates, I don't "rank" myself with any Christian here.

I completely take your word for it that you believe you were once a Christian and you now believe you are not.

Originally posted by RJHinds
I stated my belief and opinion as clear as I could. I am not reluctant to debate anyone. If they wish to debate me, I will surely reply. However, I see no reason to cause discord among fellow Christian believers by antagonizing them on such an issue as this.

On such an issue as "salvation" ~ when you are contradicting each other?

Originally posted by divegeester
Firstly I will ignore your somewhat obvious flame comparing me to the JWs and stick to the point.

Well it was a serious comparison. You are all religionists, so there will clearly be times when you share some common foibles. 🙂

Originally posted by divegeester
I completely take your word for it that you believe you were once a Christian and you now believe you are not.

So you believe that I am still a Christian?

Originally posted by FMF
I have no convincing reason to believe any of your assertions about a "father" and a "family". I don't see how you insisting your beliefs have an impact on the reality of my life and eventual death is any different from Dasa insisting that beliefs have an impact on the reality of my life and eventual death. You are simply superimposing stuff onto me just as he d ...[text shortened]... Jesus today?". Quite frankly, you all sound like you're just making stuff up as you go along. 🙂

I'm not "insisting" anything FMF. You are free to believe whatever you wish and whatever you believe has no impact on what I believe and visa versa. But here you are asking others what they believe about your particular circumstance, and when they respond you seem to take some sort of mild offence or objection by saying those people are "insisting" and "superimposing" their beliefs onto you, that is simply not the case. Certainly not from me anyway.