Originally posted by sonshipand so is that, I have assumed nothing for logic itself dictates that if you are predestined for salvation nothing you can possibly do can change the fact and Peters words and Pauls 'to put up a fine fight for the faith' and to 'be careful that if you are standing you do not fall' and for that matter also Christs that 'he who endures to the end will be saved', make NO sense!
[quote] Yet, to these same ones, 2 Peter 1:10 says: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.” (If the individuals were predestinated to salvation, they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. Since effort is required on the part of the indi ...[text shortened]... ains 3:14,15 . And both of you (robbie, Rajk999) have seen me make this explanation before.[/b]
Originally posted by SuzianneI am not trying to derail anything, in fact I have made reference to the very verses in question pointing out that Biblically they make no sense, how that can be construed as derailing can be known only by you for to any rational individual, it makes NO sense.
But it IS the reason for his "ploughing[sic] through". I agree with his sentiment. Some people only want to derail, naysay and cause confusion, apparently for their own merriment. He's correctly having none of it.
Originally posted by robbie carrobieBiblically, it makes perfect sense. I believe he's saying that you have a rather imperfect understanding of scripture, if you continue to harass him. I agree.
I am not trying to derail anything, in fact I have made reference to the very verses in question pointing out that Biblically they make no sense, how that can be construed as derailing can be known only by you for to any rational individual, it makes NO sense.
Originally posted by Suziannethe issue is not about my understanding, if you have any comment with regard to the texts that i posted feel free to make a relevant comment and asking him to clarify his position with regard to seemingly contradictory texts is not harassment as any sane individual would tell you. Perhaps you have a point though, it would be more prudent to simply let him rant into thin air in some kind of monologue for clearly he is rather uninterested in reason to the extent that you are incapable of it.
Biblically, it makes perfect sense. I believe he's saying that you have a rather imperfect understanding of scripture, if you continue to harass him. I agree.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Originally posted by robbie carrobie
and so is that, I have assumed nothing for logic itself dictates that if you are predestined for salvation nothing you can possibly do can change the fact and Peters words and Pauls 'to put up a fine fight for the faith' and to 'be careful that if you are standing you do not fall' and for that matter also Christs that 'he who endures to the end will be saved', make NO sense!
I have no problem with them making sense to me.
Between the church age and the eternal age there is the age of reward lasting at least 1,000 years:
Rev. 20:2 - Satan bound for 1,000 years
20:3 - he deceives the nations no more for 1,000 years
20:4 - overcomers lived and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years.
20:5 - the rest of the dead not raised until the 1,000 years is over
20:6 - overcomers reign as priests and kings for 1,000 years
20:7 - Satan not released until the 1,000 years is completed.
As you can see the eternal age does not begin immediately after the second coming of Christ. Therefore, God uses this intervening time for dispensational rewards.
These rewards are aside from the eternal life GIFTED to all who believe. This is the reward that can be gained or loss to those cooperating with Christ in the age of grace. It includes also overcomers from the ages before the age of grace.
This also I have written about many times on this Forum.
Originally posted by sonshipI cannot say anything in this regard for I run the risk of being accused of harassing you with stupidity, anti social behaviour, lack of humanity and claims of persecution, therefore I am simply content to let you rant away in a monologue.
[quote] [b]and so is that, I have assumed nothing for logic itself dictates that if you are predestined for salvation nothing you can possibly do can change the fact and Peters words and Pauls 'to put up a fine fight for the faith' and to 'be careful that if you are standing you do not fall' and for that matter also Christs that 'he who endures to the end wi ...[text shortened]... the ages before the age of grace.
This also I have written about many times on this Forum.
Originally posted by sonshipJesus stated that a kingdom set against itself could not stand.
The Hebrews verse I think I have already written about in the thread [b]Refuting Rajk999ism.
The Judas Iscariot objection I see no reason to argue about. We simply take the statements of the New Testament. Jesus chose the twelve on one hand. And on the other hand He knew from the beginning who it was that would betray Him.
That is simply the w ...[text shortened]... Refuting Rajk999ism if you can still find it and see if I discussed that Hebrews passage.[/b]
This was the reply to the Pharases who said it was by the devil that he cast out devils.
In saying this, we know that Judas was, for a time, with Jesus in heart and mind. As it is written, that Judas was one of those who went out, at Jesus request to preach. The Apostles, preached and miracles occurred.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Jesus Christ says that He is the Alpha and the Omega (Rev.22:13).
Both God and Christ are said to be the beginning and the end.
Those who believe that the believer can lose the eternal life implied that God can not complete what He has begun in them.
God is not like us. He says that He is the beginning and the ending. We sometimes have a beginning without an ending. At other times we have a good ending, but we do not know how to have a good beginning.
But God is both the beginning and the end. God's work cannot stop halfway. If salvation is only the result of our work, then failing in regard to the matter of salvation only means that we have stopped halfway.
Eternal salvation is God's work. He is able to save us to the uttermost (Hebrews 7:24,25).
He is the beginning and the ending and cannot be stopped in His work halfway.
He intercedes for those being saved. And He is an everliving perpetual High Priest who lives forever to intercede. Therefore His petition can save man to the uttermost extent.
"But He, because He abides forever has His priesthood unalterable. Hence also He is able to save to the uttermost those who come forward to God through Him, since HE LIVES ALWAYS TO INTERCEDE FOR THEM." (Hebrews 7:24,25 my emphasis)
Originally posted by PudgenikYes but you are attempting to reason with people who are uninterested in reason and those who are incapable of grasping it. I agree with everything you say, its self evident to anyone who has studied scripture that not only was an apostle of Christ sent out by Jesus with other apostles to perform miraculous works but that after having seen and witnessed those miracles, to have tasted as Paul states 'a token of the heavenly kingdom', only to fall away to destruction and be beyond repentance. How they can fail to understand this I cannot say. There is no support for this Calvinistic doctrine in scripture except by slight of hand and a willingness to ignore counter verses.
Jesus stated that a kingdom set against itself could not stand.
This was the reply to the Pharases who said it was by the devil that he cast out devils.
In saying this, we know that Judas was, for a time, with Jesus in heart and mind. As it is written, that Judas was one of those who went out, at Jesus request to preach. The Apostles, preached and miracles occurred.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Concerning arguing against Assurance of eternal life from the experience of Judas:
The Lord spoke also of the wheat and the tares (Matt. 13:24-30).
"Let both grow together until the harvest and at the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Collect first the tares and bind them into bundles to burn them up, but the wheat gather into my barn." (v.30)
The indication is that since Jesus came sometimes it will be impossible for His servants who are not angelic to tell false believers from true believers.
Judas was most definitely an early case of a false disciple.
Acts 1:25 says that Judas turned aside to go to his own place -
"To take the place of this ministry and apostleship, from which Judas turned aside to go to his own place."
As the son of perdition, Judas was a unique case for whom "his own place" was apparently prepared. Therefore I would never argue from Judas against the assurance of eternal life and eternal redemption in Christ.
That some casting out of demons or some miracle occurred by means of Judas does not change that he was a false disciple.
We see Jesus NOT deny that some mighty works were done in His name by those who were lawless (Matt. 7:20-21)
God may have allowed a divine miracle to be done based upon the faith of the recipients of the act rather than because of the initiator of the work of power.
Even the opposing high priest Caiaphas gave a prophecy concerning the death of Christ (John 11:50; 18:14)
Originally posted by robbie carrobieRobbie,
Why was Judas Iscariot not 'once saved always saved', he was after all appointed directly by Christ to a position of considerable authority and was until his betrayal of Christ a faithful apostle.
Just because Christ employed Judas "in service" does not mean that he was saved. In fact, didn't Christ even refer to one of his disciples as a "devil?"
There is no where in the bible that says that Judas repented unto salvation in Christ. "Following" Christ on foot, does not mean "Following" Christ from the heart. Walking with Christ on foot does not mean salvation.
Also, if Judas was a "faithful" apostle, why would he be concerned more about money than helping the poor from his heart. Doesn't the bible mention that Judas was "too concerned" about the money he was keeping among the disciples?
Lastly, consider that Judas may have been called to salvation, but was not saved in truth. And he never made it to be an apostle.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, what does it mean when the bible says something about. . .
I have not looked at the Greek.
King James Version
==============
Matthew 10: 22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.
Originally posted by KingOnPointSo if he wasn't saved, what was he? An apostle of Christ, a witness to miracles, chosen by Jesus, given a position of authority, were none of the apostles therefore in a saved position? How interesting that some here claim to be in a position of salvation yet the apostles of Christ were not, how are we to account for it?
Robbie,
Just because Christ employed Judas "in service" does not mean that he was saved. In fact, didn't Christ even refer to one of his disciples as a "devil?"
There is no where in the bible that says that Judas repented unto salvation in Christ. "Following" Christ on foot, does not mean "Following" Christ from the heart. Walking with Christ on f ...[text shortened]... ve been called to salvation, but was not saved in truth. And he never made it to be an apostle.
Originally posted by KingOnPointIndeed I mentioned it but it fell on deaf ears Jaywill being interested in simply talking into thin air and suzziane being incapable of rational thought, my point is (and hopefully i am not harassing anyone, depriving them of knowledge, being stupid, lacking humanity, claiming that I am persecuted etc etc) when I say this, but if you are once saved always saved it makes no sense to have to endure, because no matter what you do, you are saved anyway.
If it hasn't already been mentioned, what does it mean when the bible says something about. . .
I have not looked at the Greek.
King James Version
==============
Matthew 10: 22
And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that endureth to the end shall be saved.