Originally posted by robbie carrobieNo, I think there was a man with a long beard who said *poof*, and then there were whales.
reality? that's rich when so much of your materialistic beliefs are based upon unobserved phenomena! Plueeeeeeze give me a moment while I compose myself. So you believe whales evolved in the sea, came to land and then went back to the sea and that its nearest relative is a hippopotamus or an aquatic deer and that feathers developed from scales - w ...[text shortened]... get Mrs King Rat to pinch my bum if I were you for you seem to be pretty much wired to da moon!
Let's not question the origin of the man and his beard.
Originally posted by Great King RatYes i suspect it is the case, when someone is 'wired to da moon', they are like out there is space! the implication being that they are spaced out, out of the their senses etc etc etc
Yes, but I didn't know what you meant and I couldn't be bothered to ask. Maybe some Scottish colloquial.
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God saved the believers not in an miscellaneous benevolent way. His salvation is related to his PLAN. So salvation is not an acciident. Some people who assume eternal life can be revoked consider salvation like a rich man tossing to pennies to a beggar in the street. They do not realize that God's salvation is according to His eternal purpose.
Romans 8:29 says "Those whom He foreknew, He also predestinated to be conformed to the image of His Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers."
Too many readers of this verse get fixated on "predestination" and pay much lesser attention to the indication of a divine plan and purpose - " ... to be conformed to the image of God Son that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers." The salvation of the believer is for God's purpose to mass produce many brothers of Christ the Firstborn Son of God.
There is a "chain" of matters linked together leading up to the fulfullment of God's purpose. - "And those whom He foreknew He also predestinated ... and these also He called;
and these He also justified;
and these He also glorified."
This chain cannot be broken. The losing of the result of justification would be the breaking of chain leading from foreknowledge and predestination to securing sons of God in eternity future. This chain cannot be broken. We may cause God some trouble. We may drag the procedure out longer than it needs to be drawn out. But we cannot halt the process.
The people arguing for a believer losing eternal life are the ones assuming man can halt the eternal plan of God for them once it is commenced.
This series of rings of God's plan are all linked together unbreakably. Readers notice God disciplining His sons in books like Hebrews or Matthew and erroneously assume that this discipline means a revoking of God's eternal purpose for that saved person. It does not.
Originally posted by sonshipwhat have you to say about the verse that RAJK posted which seems to refute the ideas that you are once saved always saved? from it we can deduce that its possible to become acquainted with the word of truth, to be a partaker of Holy spirit and yet to fall away to the degree that its impossible to attain to repentance. It was was also pointed out that Judas Iscariot was one of the apostles sent out by Christ yet he because of his actions suffered destruction.
God saved the believers not in an miscellaneous benevolent way. His salvation is related to his PLAN. So salvation is not an acciident. Some people who assume eternal life can be revoked consider salvation like a rich man tossing to pennies to a beggar in the street. They do not realize that God's salvation is according to His eternal purpose.
[b] Romans ...[text shortened]... at this discipline means a revoking of God's eternal purpose for that saved person. It does not.
(Hebrews 6:4-6) For it is impossible as regards those who have once for all been enlightened, and who have tasted the heavenly free gift, and who have become partakers of holy spirit, and who have tasted the fine word of God and powers of the coming system of things, but who have fallen away, to revive them again to repentance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieThe Hebrews verse I think I have already written about in the thread Refuting Rajk999ism.
what have you to say about the verse that RAJK posted which seems to refute the ideas that you are once saved always saved? from it we can deduce that its possible to become acquainted with the word of truth, to be a partaker of Holy spirit and yet to fall away to the degree that its impossible to attain to repentance. It was was also pointed out t ...[text shortened]... ntance, because they impale the Son of God afresh for themselves and expose him to public shame.
The Judas Iscariot objection I see no reason to argue about. We simply take the statements of the New Testament. Jesus chose the twelve on one hand. And on the other hand He knew from the beginning who it was that would betray Him.
That is simply the way it is. We can only speculate about other things concerning it.
I am in no hurry to fight off RAJK999's objections. I first mentioned the Assurance based upon God's love. I am not dealing with Assurance based on God's plan.
The argument from Hebrews six I have answered before, to the best of my knowledge. A repeat of that discussion will just have to wait.
Go to Refuting Rajk999ism if you can still find it and see if I discussed that Hebrews passage.
Originally posted by sonshipSurely in the length it took you to write what you did you could of answered the question. In view of your assertions there are not a few things that make NO sense. What is more there is no indication what the term beginning refers to, was it the beginning of Jesus ministry or the beginning of Judas wrong course of action?
The Hebrews verse I think I have already written about in the thread [b]Refuting Rajk999ism.
The Judas Iscariot objection I see no reason to argue about. We simply take the statements of the New Testament. Jesus chose the twelve on one hand. And on the other hand He knew from the beginning who it was that would betray Him.
That is simply the w ...[text shortened]... Refuting Rajk999ism if you can still find it and see if I discussed that Hebrews passage.[/b]
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In the chain of events in Romans 8:29 we have some inbreakable rings linked to one another:
1.) We think that we first knew God when we were saved and justified. God knew us already.
2.)Those whom He knew long ago He marked out. He put a check mark [predestinated] beside our names and indicating that we were claimed for Himself.
3.) Then the ones marked out to be brothers of the Firstborn Son - Jesus, He called.
4.) After He called them He justified them.
5.) The ones so justified eventually are glorified.
Here again is the series of chained rings -
"Because whom He FOREKNEW, He also PREDESTINATED to be conformed to the image of His Son ,that He might be the Firstborn among many brothers; And those whom He predestinated, these He also CALLED; and those whom He called, these He also JUSTIFIED; and those whom He justified, these He also GLORIFIED,:" (Romans 8:29,30)
The unbreakable chain is
FOREKNEW -> PREDESTINATED -> CALLED -> JUSTIFIED -> GLORIFIED
Since glorification has not yet occured the Apostle Paul is viewing this from God's transcendent view point. To God it has already all happened. And John SAW all the saved in the New Jerusalem in Revelation 21 and 22.
The foolish ones who surmise that God will revoke eternal redemption and eternal life do not comprehend this divinely ordained chain. They may see something of God's benevolence. But they do not see anything of God's PLAN.
According to this chain of God's plan Justification is not the first step. The history of the saved sinner's relationship with God does not start with Justification. Rather it starts with God's foreknowledge.
To OUR sensation it seems as if it started with Justification. But God's foreknowledge in this chain is the beginning of everything. If the believer were to lose his justification then we would have to put a question mark on God's omniscience. Since God foreknew and marked out in predestination the believer how can the believer perish after having been saved ?
To be Marked Out was the SECOND step. So a person marked out for conformity to the image of the Firstborn Son of God can never be thrown away into eternal hell like a piece of wood.
He may be disciplined. He may be chastized. He may suffer loss in the millennial kingdom. He can never perish forever. The plan of God is also the believer's assurance of eternal life.
The Bible says that God has BEGUN a good work in the believer and will COMPLETE it, according to God's plan.
"Being confident of this very thing, that He who has begun a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus ..." (Philippians 1:6)
Originally posted by sonshipwow without actually addressing any of the concerns that were put to you , you somehow plough on regardless like a blinkered horse in a race onto the finish. Never the less, let us consider your text,
In the chain of events in [b]Romans 8:29 we have some inbreakable rings linked to one another:
1.) We think that we first knew God when we were saved and justified. God knew us already.
2.)Those whom He knew long ago He marked out. He put a check mark [predestinated] beside our names and indicating that we were claimed for Himself.
3.) Then the ...[text shortened]... un a good work in you will complete it until the day of Christ Jesus ..." (Philippians 1:6) [/b][/b]
Rom. 8:28, 29: “We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called according to his purpose; because those whom he gave his first recognition he also foreordained [“predestinated,” KJ] to be patterned after the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers.” (Also Eph. 1:5, 11)
Yet, to these same ones, 2 Peter 1:10 says: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.” (If the individuals were predestinated to salvation, they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. Since effort is required on the part of the individuals, it must be the class that is foreordained. God purposed that the entire class would conform to the pattern set by Jesus Christ. Those selected by God to be part of that class, however, must prove faithful if they are actually to attain the reward set before them.)
This makes absolutely more sense and can be harmonised with the rest of scripture rather than the Calvinistic doctrine of individual predestination and the ludicrous implication that a person from their birth is predestined either to salvation or to damnation.
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Originally posted by robbie carrobieI see no contradiction at all between Romans 8:28,29 and Second Peter 1:10.
wow without actually addressing any of the concerns that were put to you , you somehow plough on regardless like a blinkered horse in a race onto the finish. Never the less, let us consider your text,
Rom. 8:28, 29: “We know that God makes all his works cooperate together for the good of those who love God, those who are the ones called accordin ...[text shortened]... s implication that a person from their birth is predestined either to salvation or to damnation.
As for "ploughing through" ? That's right. I am in no hurry to jump through every hoop you and Rajkkk99 put up, especially since I have dealt with them before. Return to thread "Refutting RAJK999ism "
Maybe if someone NEW asked me to comment on those passages, I would oblique them more speedily. You two whom I have talked to before for years now ? No hurry at all.
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Yet, to these same ones, 2 Peter 1:10 says: “Do your utmost to make the calling and choosing of you sure for yourselves; for if you keep on doing these things you will by no means ever fail.” (If the individuals were predestinated to salvation, they could not possibly fail, regardless of what they did. Since effort is required on the part of the individuals, it must be the class that is foreordained. God purposed that the entire class would conform to the pattern set by Jesus Christ. Those selected by God to be part of that class, however, must prove faithful if they are actually to attain the reward set before them.)
You ASSUME that "fail" can only mean perish forever, be unsaved again.
You ASSUME that "reward" is the "gift".
But if you read the New Testament carefully you would see that some believers lose a "reward" yet are saved - "yet so as through fire."
First Corinthains 3:14,15 . And both of you (robbie, Rajk999) have seen me make this explanation before.
Originally posted by sonshipsorry thats unworthy of serious comment
I see no contradiction at all between Romans 8:28,29 and Second Peter 1:10.
As for "ploughing through" ? That's right. I am in no hurry to jump through every hoop you and Rajkkk99 put up, especially since I have dealt with them before. Return to thread [b]"Refutting RAJK999ism "
Maybe if someone NEW asked me to comment on those passages, I would ...[text shortened]... que them more speedily. You two whom I have talked to before for years now ? No hurry at all.[/b]