Illusions opinions reality

@caljust said
OK Kelly, I am prepared to try to have another proper discussion with you, but let us take it one step at a time.
I think it is commendable that you "don't have an issue with someone who believes differently" than you do. That is a great start.

But then in your final sentence you refer to "truth" again, and oppose that to "illusion".

Question 1: Am I right in assumin ...[text shortened]... two simple questions honestly, we may be making progress towards some kind of common understanding.

Yes, truth does not depend on our opinions, like reality it doesn't change with my having a bad day, or I live in this country instead of that one.

Building my world view on an "illusion" does not put me on solid ground, instead it is more like shifting sand. Nothing solid there, nothing to rely on that can not change or disappear as quickly as it appeared since it isn't real. An illusion can mold itself around what I want, but not reality, that will remain as is and will not alter itself because I become disinterested, or I start to not like where it is taking me, or because those around me don't like it.

@kellyjay said
Yes, truth does not depend on our opinions, like reality it doesn't change with my having a bad day, or I live in this country instead of that one.

So, do you have no opinions about "truth" and "reality"?

@fmf said
There are people who act in an immoral way regardless of what their moral compass does or doesn't tell them, assuming they even have one at all, sure, but who is arguing that "anything goes" when it comes to "this moral thing"?

So you can tell when someone is disobeying their own moral compass? What if what they say their moral compass is showing them is a lie, and what they are doing is obeying their moral compass? Lying might just be part of how they are walking out their path, how could you tell the difference?

@fmf said
So, do you have no opinions about "truth" and "reality"?

No I do, but you cannot see them, even when I tell them to you, for you its all opinions.

@kellyjay said
kellyjay said
"Which means that there isn’t any real evil, just those things we disliked passionately?"

ghost-of-duke said,
"Okay, you've convinced me. There is no such thing as evil."

If it is always opinions then there is never "a" good only, just opinions that come and go with the wind. You don't think that is true? If there is a good and evil, then opinions eith ...[text shortened]... lways vary from person to person, from time to time, from culture to culture, or society to society.

Sorry kelly, but where is that me saying there is no such thing as 'good'?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sorry kelly, but where is that me saying there is no such thing as 'good'?

If there is no good there is no evil, or do you think that is not true?

@kellyjay said
So living in an illusion is okay if it makes one happy? Doesn't these positions actually carry some serious realities, no matter what one of the two you happen to favor?

We humans tend to exaggerate the importance of our own beliefs.

I don't think belief in God, or lack of belief, tells one very much about a person. For those that are naturally kind, charitable, etc., if they're believers,, they focus on the parts of scripture that match their own tendencies. Those who are less kind and more judgmental focus on the more unforgiving bits of scripture.

@kellyjay said
If there is no good there is no evil, or do you think that is not true?

I told you that I did not think 'good' was the opposite of 'evil.' 'Good' is the opposite of 'bad.'

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I told you that I did not think 'good' was the opposite of 'evil.' 'Good' is the opposite of 'bad.'

"I'll go with 5 categories:

1. Angelic - Rare
2. Good
3. Ben Affleck (drab/neutral)
4. Bad
5. Evil - Rare"

You referring to this or something else you said? I have to tell you truthfully I was a little disappointed at your description of good here, you don't even believe in angels so what is really above good? I thought the categories were a joke due to that type of thing, nothing here meant anything at all to me! What does Ben Affleck (drab/neutral) mean? Didn't he cheat on his wife with his nanny or was accused of it, and this guy is in your estimation neutral, how did you come up with that? What does good mean that you could be perfectly good and there is still something better? How bad does bad have to be before it becomes evil, and why would it have to be rare? You are using what to measure these things, how can you tell what is good, or bad?

@kellyjay said
Yes, truth does not depend on our opinions, like reality it doesn't change with my having a bad day, or I live in this country instead of that one.

Do you think my questions are unfair, or biased or something? Why don't you want to simply answer them?

If you think me asking you questions is presumptious (in order, maybe, to try to establish some common ground for discussion) feel free to ask me anything you like.

@caljust said
Do you think my questions are unfair, or biased or something? Why don't you want to simply answer them?

If you think me asking you questions is presumptious (in order, maybe, to try to establish some common ground for discussion) feel free to ask me anything you like.

You didn't address what I said, so why do I have to defend anything I did say? It isn't that your questions is unfair or biased or something, it was that it didn't have anything to do with the point at all. It cannot be right or wrong if it isn't talking to the point made.

@bigdoggproblem said
We humans tend to exaggerate the importance of our own beliefs.

I don't think belief in God, or lack of belief, tells one very much about a person. For those that are naturally kind, charitable, etc., if they're believers,, they focus on the parts of scripture that match their own tendencies. Those who are less kind and more judgmental focus on the more unforgiving bits of scripture.

I'm not completely against your point, my beliefs whatever they are don't matter as much as my actions in many cases. If my beliefs are not leading me to loving God and others, it really doesn't matter what I believe. As the scripture says if I see someone in need and don't do anything for them what good is my faith, it is dead? We are not going to be judged on what we would have done had we more than we do, we are going to be judged on what we did with what we had.

@kellyjay said
"I'll go with 5 categories:

1. Angelic - Rare
2. Good
3. Ben Affleck (drab/neutral)
4. Bad
5. Evil - Rare"

You referring to this or something else you said? I have to tell you truthfully I was a little disappointed at your description of good here, you don't even believe in angels so what is really above good? I thought the categories were a joke due to that t ...[text shortened]... have to be rare? You are using what to measure these things, how can you tell what is good, or bad?

Part joke. (Ben Affleck is drab due to his acting ability).

As I've said previously, your black and white approach to morality is erroneous. You lump all 'bad people' in the same pot, so the naughty child stands alongside the serial killer. That's just silly to me. People without God are simply 'people without God' and do not as a consequence descend into a state of evil.

And I don't use angelic in the literal sense. I've known a few angelical people in my life. Some are theists, some are not.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Part joke. (Ben Affleck is drab due to his acting ability).

As I've said previously, your black and white approach to morality is erroneous. You lump all 'bad people' in the same pot, so the naughty child stands alongside the serial killer. That's just silly to me. People without God are simply 'people without God' and do not as a consequence descend into a state o ...[text shortened]... in the literal sense. I've known a few angelical people in my life. Some are theists, some are not.

🙂 okay completely agree with Ben Affleck, though I really liked him in the movie, "Accountant"

The rest is still grading on a curve without a means to set what is acceptable or not. The lumping is a life in total, can good be good, if it isn't always the same scale for that standard? How bad can we twist good until is bad?

The confusion about God being just and good as well as love doesn't look at God in whole only little bits at a time. Can God be all of the above at the same time, just and if just does this mean every bad thing must be paid for leaving all of us completely condemn for the littlest to the largest crimes? Can God be merciful, does that mean God must let off the hook crimes instead of judging them? Can God be love and not help us out of the state we are in while doing it in such away that up holds His nature completely? If there is a standard can we judge ourselves by ourselves and not be corrupt while we do it, letting some off because in our eyes it isn't so bad, and condemn others for being bad? The scales of justice are they real or simply a popularity contest for us?

If morality is based upon a real good, then wouldn't violating it be a crime no matter how little or huge bad is we do it?

@kellyjay said
You didn't address what I said, so why do I have to defend anything I did say? It isn't that your questions is unfair or biased or something, it was that it didn't have anything to do with the point at all. It cannot be right or wrong if it isn't talking to the point made.

Actually, I thought I addressed it pretty much, although your wording is a little convoluted.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but your point with this thread is to draw a distinction between truth and opinions? And what you are claiming is that truth and reality trumps opinions, am I right?

So all I tried to point out is that the concept of "truth" is subjective.

Have I addressed your question now? I am really trying my best to understand where you are going here.