How is eternity expressed mathematically?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The arguments for the doctrine of ternal torment have for their eficacy an understanding of the term translated in scripture as torment. I offer the following insight.

Thanks robbie. I will study this and any other Christian perspective you offer. I hope Grampy Bobby engages you properly.

Originally posted by FMF
And there's you, just after having said how you'll have no part in making it personal. 😕

please see my arguments for the translation of the term torment, it makes no references to personality 😀

Originally posted by FMF
Thanks robbie. I will study this and any other Christian perspective you offer. I hope Grampy Bobby engages you properly.

the etymology of the term translated as torment is quite interesting in itself but rationality rarely if ever wins the day with a doctrine that is of itself quite irrational. Good luck. I see that suzzianne has arrived and I must be at pains to leave less I be accused of inhumanity, stupidity, claiming that I am persecuted and harassing people.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please see my arguments for the translation of the term torment, it makes no references to personality 😀

This was the bit that made you seem hypocritical or ~ to put the best spin on it ~ rather 'un-self-aware': "I have never faced any problems from GB, but suzzianne and jaywill are in my opinion incapable of rational thought and resort to caustic diatribe in the case of the former and going into a trance like state in the case of the latter."

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
No i dont subscribe to the doctrine of eternal torment, I dont think its scriptural and relies for its efficacy on some rather shaky principles and ideas.

Take for example the lake of fire, its clearly symbolic, for into the lake of fire get hurled death and hades. If it were a literal lake of fire this would make NO sense.

(Revelation 20: ...[text shortened]... diatribe in the case of the former and going into a trance like state in the case of the latter.

First of all, your "rational thought" consists of whatever the WTO spoon-feeds you. This makes you unable to use your own brain to figure things out for yourself, even when faced with overwhelming evidence which convinces most normal people.

As for "caustic diatribe", it's a last resort when I'm faced with someone too stupid to understand what I'm saying to them (see above).

Originally posted by Suzianne
First of all, your "rational thought" consists of whatever the WTO spoon-feeds you. This makes you unable to use your own brain to figure things out for yourself, even when faced with overwhelming evidence which convinces most normal people.

As for "caustic diatribe", it's a last resort when I'm faced with someone too stupid to understand what I'm saying to them (see above).

Would it be unchristian of me if I said 'shut up you crazy ol bat!' yes it would so I refrain although I wanted to.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Good for you, we can add it to your already extensive list of self proclaimed righteousness, at this rate FMF you will surely be canonised. Its a pity you were not so great at admitting your foibles, its kind of like chess players who always post their wins but very rarely if ever post their losses, despite the fact that everyone knows more is to be gained by examining ones losses.😵

He said with a car salesman smile on his face.

And yet you think this kind of interaction is preferable to the more honest "caustic diatribe". Okay.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Would it be unchristian of me if I said 'shut up you crazy ol bat?' yes it would so I refrain although I wanted to.

Except I am not the one who is crazy, robbie.

Originally posted by Suzianne
He said with a car salesman smile of his face.

And yet you think this kind of interaction is preferable to the more honest "caustic diatribe". Okay.

please pester someone else with your incessant whining.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Its Calvinistic.

Calvin was the worst thing to happen to Christianity.

Talk about leading people down the wrong road.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
please pester someone else with your incessant whining.

Ditto.

Oh, so ditto.

I might remind you you're the one who started in on me, this time. I'm generally content to ignore you.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I can only go by what is written, for even if GB espouses eternal torment it still does not explain why he has made reference to eternal annihilation.

It's pretty clear to most people (yes, even here) that what GB "copy-pasted" was an argument *against* Annihilationism.

How you missed that, well, I'll leave that up to others to decide.

Originally posted by FMF
And there's you, just after having said how you'll have no part in making it personal. 😕

the real crux of the matter is Revelation 20:10

(Revelation 20:10) And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(Revelation 20:14, 15) And death and Hades were hurled into the lake of fire. This means the second death, the lake of fire. Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire.


The fact is verse 14 shows that “the lake of fire” in which the torment occurs, actually means “the second death.” The implications of this are quite profound, for the second death is annihilation. When coupled with the idea that incarceration itself is the torment (applied to Satan and his demonic hordes and stressed through the etymology of the Greek term) it becomes rather clear that the lake of fire (itself symbolic) and the result of being thrown into it leads not to eternal torture, but to annihilation.

all that one needs to do is therefore understand the term forever and ever and it seems that it refers not to them being tormented forever and ever but to the duration of their punishment itself, annihilation, lasting forever and ever.

Originally posted by divegeester
It's not a prominent doctrine at all (of course), it is an erroneous medieval horror show which some believers have swallowed with the bait. The root of the problem is the finite interpretation of scripture outside of the perspective of a loving merciful god - evidenced by the many citing of "mercy triumphs over judgement".

Of course we are talking a ...[text shortened]... burning is totally unfounded in the text and completely against the nature of god, as I see him.

I have to express doubt here. This "eternal torment in the Lake of Fire" concept IS mainstream in most Christian denominations. Whenever I speak to other Christians and express my ideas on Annihilationism, I'm usually derided, asked if I can read scripture, etc. It's usually not pretty.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the real crux of the matter is Revelation 20:10

(Revelation 20:10) And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulphur, where both the wild beast and the false prophet [already were]; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

(Revelation 20:14, 15) And death and Hades were hurled into the lake ...[text shortened]... bolic) and the result of being thrown into it leads not to eternal torture, but to annihilation.

Agreed.

(Wow, did I just say that? 😛 )

I'm not sure what meaning they're getting from the words "second death". I see it as a death (i.e. not a "torment" ) after the first death, which ended their mortal lives.