03 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayYou obviously don't understand my point. Either that or you wilfully keep sidestepping it. You keep repeating that god has given us the ability to make our own choices. But the passage in question explicitly contradicts this. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God denied Pharaoh's (supposed) free choice in this matter. God made Pharaoh's choice for him. At that point, Pharaoh could not have chosen otherwise. It was a rigged game.
Yes, I understand your point. Mine is that on a level playing field it is
the same thing as a found wallet, a dishonest person will take the
money while an honest one will return it. God acts with us the same
way to do the right thing or to not do the right thing, God gives the
same choices to eveyone the same way and with some it simply a
matter of th ...[text shortened]... abilities to make our own choices it is us in the end that
causes us to do what we will.
Kelly
I've done a little research into the matter now and it appears there are 11 passages in Exodus that say the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. There was no free choice involved here.
03 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettYes, God forced Pharaoh to make choices, he gave what would have
You obviously don't understand my point. Either that or you wilfully keep sidestepping it. You keep repeating that god has given us the ability to make our own choices. But the passage in question explicitly contradicts this. God hardened Pharaoh's heart. God denied Pharaoh's (supposed) free choice in this matter. God made Pharaoh's choice for him. At that Exodus that say the Lord hardened Pharaoh's heart. There was no free choice involved here.
caused another to act differently and with good cause. The fact that
Pharaoh did what he did does not mean that God forced him into
making that choice, but those choices had to made, and Pharaoh was
forced to make them. When we are put to it, we will also solidify our
stances too, we will bend our arguments around what we want them
to be, and harden our hearts so to speak to justify our actions.
The Pharaoh did not want to let them go, as soon as he was free to do
what he wanted, the only way he could keep them there was to harden
his own heart against what was clearly in front of his own eyes. God
was doing a work right in front of him, even telling him what God
was going to do before it was done so there was no doubt. Doing
what was clearly required and not wanting to do it requires something
from the Pharaoh that the Pharaoh was not willing to do as it does
with us too. If it is a level playing field what could cause anyone to
act correctly under those circumstances is all that is required, the
fact that Pharaoh choose not to speaks more to Pharaoh than God.
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJayNonsense. You're just spouting your own unfounded opinion here. The fact is that scripture contradicts you. 11 time over, to be exact:
Yes, God forced Pharaoh to make choices, he gave what would have
caused another to act differently and with good cause. The fact that
Pharaoh did what he did does not mean that God forced him into
making that choice, but those choices had to made, and Pharaoh was
forced to make them. When we are put to it, we will also solidify our
stances too, we will ...[text shortened]... l that is required, the
fact that Pharaoh choose not to speaks more to Pharaoh than God.
Kelly
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go.
Exodus 7:3
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and multiply my signs and my wonders in the land of Egypt.
Exodus 7:13
And he hardened Pharaoh's heart, that he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had said.
Exodus 9:12
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh, and he hearkened not unto them; as the LORD had spoken unto Moses.
Exodus 10:1
And the LORD said unto Moses, Go in unto Pharaoh: for I have hardened his heart, and the heart of his servants, that I might shew these my signs before him:
Exodus 10:20
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go.
Exodus 10:27
But the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, and he would not let them go.
Exodus 11:10
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.
Exodus 14:4
And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, that he shall follow after them; and I will be honoured upon Pharaoh, and upon all his host; that the Egyptians may know that I am the LORD.
Exodus 14:8
And the LORD hardened the heart of Pharaoh king of Egypt, and he pursued after the children of Israel
Exodus 14:17
I will harden the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour.
03 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by rwingettYes, I don't see this as going against what I said. God hardened
Nonsense. You're just spouting your own unfounded opinion here. The fact is that scripture contradicts you. 11 time over, to be exact:
Exodus 4:21
And the LORD said unto Moses, When thou goest to return into Egypt, see that thou do all those wonders before Pharaoh, which I have put in thine hand: [b]but I will harden his heart, that he shall not le en the hearts of the Egyptians, and they shall follow them: and I will get me honour.[/b]
Pharaoh's heart, and he did it how? He put Pharaoh in the position
of having to do what Pharaoh wanted in front of everyting that told
him not to do what Pharaoh should have done. If you are saying
that God forced Pharaoh by pulling strings that took away the
Pharaoh's ability to make a choice, I don't agree for the reasons I
have given. Either God gives us choices or God does not.
Yes, I am giving you my opinion, what else will you ever get from
me?
Kelly
03 Sep 06
Originally posted by dj2beckerWrong assumption about my religion.
I take it that you have a Naturalistic, Atheistic framework.
You thus have no reason for any moral absolutes within this paradigm.
Thus your evalution of God's love and mercy is invalid as you are using a absolute point of reference.
I am a Pantheist.
I run a group on MSN called The Process.
Just what moral absolute is there for your god who creates people knowing, even before your god creates them, that your god will send them to hell?
Your god is contradictory, and evil.
Your god is manmade.
Your blindness is fundamental.
03 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by KellyJayQuit trying to twist the scriptures to mean what you want them to mean, KellyJay. No amount of mental gymnastics can obfuscate the fact that "...but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." can only mean one thing. The Lord made Pharaoh's choice for him. The Lord rigged the game so that he would have an excuse to vent his wrath and strut around like some flambouyant WWE wrestler.
Yes, I don't see this as going against what I said. God hardened
Pharaoh's heart, and he did it how? He put Pharaoh in the position
of having to do what Pharaoh wanted in front of everyting that told
him not to do what Pharaoh should have done. If you are saying
that God forced Pharaoh by pulling strings that took away the
Pharaoh's ability to make a c d does not.
Yes, I am giving you my opinion, what else will you ever get from
me?
Kelly
Exodus 14:1-4
Then the Lord said to Moses, "Tell the people of Israel to turn back and encamp in front of Pi-ha-hi'roth, between Mig'dol and the sea, in front of Ba'al-ze'phon; you shall encamp over against it, by the sea. For Pharaoh will say of the people of Israel, 'They are entangled in the land; the wilderness has shut them in.' And I will harden Pharaoh's heart, and he will pursue them and I will get glory over Pharaoh and all his host; and the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord."
The whole thing was a setup. The Lord played Pharaoh like a deck of cards. All so he could gain glory over Pharaoh and make his petty little point.
03 Sep 06
1 edit
Originally posted by dj2beckerSo God created us without the capability to follow the laws he made, but with the capability to feel guilty for something which is beyond our responsibility, and if we don't feel guilty, we will be punished? That makes a lot of sense (not).
It is within our capability to accept the the fact that we are sinners, and that we cannot save ourselves, but that God has payed the price for our sins so that we can receive forgiveness for them and be justified once again through his son Jesus Christ.
04 Sep 06
Originally posted by rwingettI am not denying that God played Pharaoh like a deck of cards, but
Quit trying to twist the scriptures to mean what you want them to mean, KellyJay. No amount of mental gymnastics can obfuscate the fact that "...but I will harden his heart, that he shall not let the people go." can only mean one thing. The Lord made Pharaoh's choice for him. The Lord rigged the game so that he would have an excuse to vent his wrath ...[text shortened]... k of cards. All so he could gain glory over Pharaoh and make his petty little point.
the fact remains that had it been in Pharaoh's heart to do the right
thing, he would have not done what he did. Which was and is my point,
doing the right and wrong thing is still within our grasp, not wanting
to do the right thing doesn't mean that God isn't going to deal with
someone. It does mean that end of the day, no one will have an
excuse before God, the right thing was there to do, and Pharaoh
did not do it, in spite of all he knew. He will have no excuse before
God, the very thing that should have brought him to do the right
thing he rejected, and on a level playing field it would have brought
others to do what was required. The fact that those that reject God
will find the wrath of God, that their excuses will fail them in the end
will cause all to see God's wrath on display, just as those that seek
God's mercy through Jesus Christ will see God's grace and mercy.
Both God's wrath and God's mercy are without mixture, if you are
going to recieve either there will be none of the other mixed into
whatever you recieve, be it mercy or be it wrath.
Kelly
04 Sep 06
Originally posted by KellyJaySo you are saying that god is not omniscient?
I am not denying that God played Pharaoh like a deck of cards, but
the fact remains that had it been in Pharaoh's heart to do the right
thing, he would have not done what he did. Which was and is my point,
doing the right and wrong thing is still within our grasp, not wanting
to do the right thing doesn't mean that God isn't going to deal with
someone. ...[text shortened]... e none of the other mixed into
whatever you recieve, be it mercy or be it wrath.
Kelly