Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI think morality is the product of human conscience and social interaction, and, arguably, it is the ultimate and most complex manifestation of human culture. It comes from within us and is also developed and perpetuated by our collectivist existence and activities.
You said the act of lying for example is morally justifiable when it is done to protect your family from harm.
When people talk of 'the wonder of life' etc., some of the first things I think of are the capacity of human conscience, the existence of moral sensibilities, the capacity to comprehend, decide and act, and the collective construction of ideas like justice, and their application.
Bless your cotton socks, and bless the internet for empowering us all and facilitating our freedom of speech, but your insistence on superimposing onto this amazingly complex set of faculties and realities [that I believe morality regulates and defines], your essentially autistic approach, rooted in your belief in supernatural phenomena and supernatural creatures, is only interesting up to a point. For instance, I find the impact it has on your intellectual behaviour interesting. But as a model, I do not find it interesting.
Because, for all your declarations that your own opinions and interpretations of situations constitute or coincide with "universal truths", and for all your declarations that the moral sensibilities of people who disagree with you "don't matter", are "meaningless", "incoherent" and "make no logical sense", I have discovered from your pontifications about morality that I could not, for example, trust you to look after my children in my absence. This is a hypothetical scenario, so don't deflect by pretending it's a specific personal attack on you; it's a reaction to your zealotry and dogmatism.
I could not trust you to look after my children for me. Why not? Well, you might cite some supposedly "objective truth" to justify not defending them from harm. You might argue that to carry out such an obvious [to me] moral obligation ~ protecting them from danger or threats ~ might be morally unsound according to your unilateral, and affectedly inflexible definition of "universal truth". Your moral sense could paralyze you and prevent you from standing up to "evil".
In this hypothetical, how could I trust you to look after my children when you have demonstrated that your human conscience and moral compass is so distorted and convoluted by your ideology? This I have gleened from discussing morality with you, even if your side of the discussion has verged on parody at times.
So you should perhaps reflect on the signals you are giving off about moral issues and you might be wise to contemplate whether or not people would want to emulate you and the declarations and interpretations your superstitions and personal preferences have resulted in you making.
Originally posted by FMFI used the same scenario you used to justify lying. I am asking you whether the same scenario would justify rape? Are you going to asnwer the question?
It is you who has alleged that I am open to justifying rape and that I tolerate the idea that rape is not wrong. So you come up with a scenario.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkDescribe a scenario. I don't get what you mean. Tell me the situation you envisage. Describe the moral dilemma in some detail.
I used the same scenario you used to justify lying. I am asking you whether the same scenario would justify rape? Are you going to asnwer the question?
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Originally posted by Fetchmyjunk[b]House-invading thieves and rapists come into my house and ransack the ground floor. My wife and daughters are hiding upstairs. The head thug asks me where my wife and daughters are, and lie to him ~ I swear on their lives that they are away in the next town visiting relatives. The house-invaders leave with their loot. I don't think my actions in this situation would have been morally unsound
I used the same scenario you used to justify lying.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkDescribe a scenario. Read my 'lying to protect my family' moral dilemma scenario and then set up a similar scenario that gives me a real life moral dilemma like the one you presumably want to pose but are trying to dodge. Just do it, otherwise I will have to conclude you are acting the fool and trolling me.
The same scenario you gave to justify lying, would it justify rape? Yes or No?
Originally posted by FMFThe exact same scenario you used, but instead of lying you are asked to commit the act of rape else your family will be harmed. So essentially the same scenario where you believe lying is morally justifiable, would it also justify rape ? Yes or No?
Describe a scenario. Read my 'lying to protect my family' moral dilemma scenario and then set up a similar scenario that gives me a real life moral dilemma like the one you presumably want to pose but are trying to dodge. Just do it, otherwise I will have to conclude you are acting the fool and trolling me.
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Originally posted by FetchmyjunkDescribe the scenario in some detail. Describe how I am presented with the dilemma and describe how the 'bargain' offered is framed so that it's credible or realistic. And explain how it is "the exact same scenario" as the one I offered about lying (which I note you are blanking out). Do these things, and I will try to address your point if you actually have one.
The exact same scenario you used, but instead of lying you are asked to commit the act of rape else your family will be harmed.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkUnless you are willing to actually set me a real-life scenario in which there is a credible life or death dilemma like the one you seem to have in mind then I am going to conclude that you are just taking the piss. If, on the other hand, you describe a scenario, I will try to predict how I would handle it.
The exact same scenario you used, but instead of lying you are asked to commit the act of rape else your family will be harmed. So essentially the same scenario where you believe lying is morally justifiable, would it also justify rape ? Yes or No?
Originally posted by FMFClearly you are just dodging the question.
Describe the scenario in some detail. Describe how I am presented with the dilemma and describe how the 'bargain' offered is framed so that it's credible or realistic. And explain how it is "the exact same scenario" as the one I offered about lying (which I note you are blanking out). Do these things, and I will try to address your point if you actually have one.
Originally posted by FetchmyjunkI have already written a draft answer and will modify it and post it here as soon as you set up a scenario that is "the exact same scenario" [that's what you said] as my scenario about the morality of lying to house-invaders. When you do, I'll look at my text here, change it to fit your scenario, and post it.
Clearly you are just dodging the question.
Originally posted by FMFWhat additional information would I need to add to your scenario to make it more realistic? It is a hypothetical situation after all. In essence you are told to commit the act of rape or your family will be killed. You clearly just don't want to answer the question.
I have already written a draft answer and will modify it and post it here as soon as you set up a scenario that is "the exact same scenario" [that's what you said] as my scenario about the morality of lying to house-invaders. When you do, I'll look at my text here, change it to fit your scenario, and post it.