"Former Christians"

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Thanks, been here since 2004, but take long vacations from time to time...🙂

“No man needs a vacation so much as the man who has just had one.” (Elbert Hubbard)

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
“No man needs a vacation so much as the man who has just had one.” (Elbert Hubbard)

🙂

Originally posted by Rank outsider
On the other point.

I had sciatica recently (I think L2), and I was sent to a chiropractor. She placed her hands on me, and I felt a strong sensation of heat there, and the pain was significantly relieved for quite a while.

Not so dissimilar.

And I had sciatica, went to a chiropractor, and he made it worse. So much worse in fact, he refused to collect any funds for my last several visits.. out of guilt to be sure. I ended up dragging my left foot behind me as I walked, and barely avoided surgery, finally finding relief in a special type of epideral. I have those spinal injections as needed which averages about once every couple of years.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I knew this would get blown out of proportion. You guys are like the Pharisee's who want every detail so you could rationalize, pick apart, disprove, or in your mind, "there has to be a rational explanation". Well I am not giving anymore details.

I am not blowing it out of proportion. I merely want to understand what you believe. You say you have been healed through prayer. I want to know what your beliefs are as to why you were healed. Clearly most people are not healed by prayer, and your response suggests that you yourself do not expect to get healed most of the time.
So when God healed you it it presumably wan't with the primary aim of maintaining your good health, but had some other purpose, enhancing your faith, or converting you perhaps?

As I said earlier, though someone were raised from the dead in front of your eyes, you would still not give God the glory due Him, because as Jesus said ..men loved darkness and would not come to the light.....
You are probably correct about this. But why are you mentioning it? Was the only reason you told us about your miracle the hope that I would 'give God the glory due to Him'? Is this also the only reason you talk to atheists? You cannot discuss your beliefs unless there is a conversion imminent?

Originally posted by Suzianne
Come on, if you're going to use the third degree, you need a high-wattage bulb with a giant reflector, maybe some rope to tie him up, perhaps a rubber hose or something that won't leave a mark. Oh, yeah, and some water to splash in his face if he passes out.

Get with the program.

Checkbaiter made the claim that he had first hand experience of a miracle. Unlike your example, the facts he gave were consistent with what I would consider prima facie the requirements of a miracle. I am not dismissing what happened to you, which was both terrible and wonderful, but everything than happened does not exhibit on the surface a demonstration of supernatural powers, even if God were acting to help you.

He was asked by Proper Knob some perfectly legitimate questions. He refused to answer them.

Checkbaiter's story can legitimately be challenged, as it does not on the surface hold together.

If there were a rationale explanation for this, would you prefer to go on thinking it is a miracle?

This is why some posters say that Christians don't answer questions because.....err.....sometimes you don't.

Originally posted by twhitehead
I am not blowing it out of proportion. I merely want to understand what you believe. You say you have been healed through prayer. I want to know what your beliefs are as to why you were healed. Clearly most people are not healed by prayer, and your response suggests that you yourself do not expect to get healed most of the time.
So when God healed you it ...[text shortened]... you talk to atheists? You cannot discuss your beliefs unless there is a conversion imminent?

I was healed by our church leader at the time, by the manifestation of holy spirit. It is one of the 9 functions of the gift of holy spirit.. Sometimes I get healed, sometimes I don't. Why? I have no clue.
The unbelief I mentioned was because it reminded me of some scripture I read.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I was healed by our church leader at the time, by the manifestation of holy spirit. It is one of the 9 functions of the gift of holy spirit.. Sometimes I get healed, sometimes I don't. Why? I have no clue.
The unbelief I mentioned was because it reminded me of some scripture I read.

Thank you for the honest answers.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
As I said earlier, though someone were raised from the dead in front of your eyes, you would still not give God the glory due Him, because as Jesus said ..men loved darkness and would not come to the light.....

I have given this some thought, and I am wondering why you believe I am a lost cause. Your experience of a miracle was clearly quite convincing for you. Why would an equivalent miracle not be convincing to me? Did you already love the light at the time? Is there something about me that tells you that I love the darkness and am incapable of change?

Originally posted by twhitehead
I have given this some thought, and I am wondering why you believe I am a lost cause. Your experience of a miracle was clearly quite convincing for you. Why would an equivalent miracle not be convincing to me? Did you already love the light at the time? Is there something about me that tells you that I love the darkness and am incapable of change?

I do not think you are a lost cause and I was healed well after I was already a Christian. No one is a lost cause, the bible says Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost.
What I was portraying was scripture spoken by Jesus. I did not mean it directly at you, but in general.
Many people (unbelievers) are not honest, they say they think Christianity is ridiculous but what they hide deep within, is that they don't want God to be real. They do not want to be held accountable for their actions, their sinfulness, of which we are all guilty.
I came to the Lord in 1974 on my way to "cop" some pot. The person I was buying from was well known to me. He had been to a Christian event, and I could tell he had witnessed some thing very moving...It was a big Christian event in Ohio somewhere, about 20,000 Christians from around the country. There was a heavy down pour, raining cats and dogs, according to him. As the whole group prayed to God, the rain stopped, the sun peeked through the clouds and the weather changed dramatically for the remainder of the week....he heard some powerful teaching, he was ministered to and I could see he was very excited.
I felt like a surge of his excitement was flowing through to me. When I got home, my wife sensed something different about me as well.
I went to a Christian service, got born again and the rest is history...Life changed for me to...I struggled for awhile at first, still smoking pot, etc...but that is another chapter for later....I was not always faithful, I was always in and out of fellowship with God...to my own hurt....have to go for now...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Many people (unbelievers) are not honest, they say they think Christianity is ridiculous but what they hide deep within, is that they don't want God to be real. They do not want to be held accountable for their actions, their sinfulness, of which we are all guilty.

I am not one of those many people. I think Christianity is ridiculous because it seems ridiculous to me. There is no hidden agenda.
You are probably correct that if I saw someone reserected in front of me, the first thought would be 'con man' and the second might me 'medical marvel'. I would't even consider 'God did it'. But this is because everything I have learnt in life, everything I know about the universe, goes against such a conclusion. It is not because of some hidden fear of being held accountable.

Originally posted by Rank outsider
I am not dismissing what happened to you, which was both terrible and wonderful, but everything than happened does not exhibit on the surface a demonstration of supernatural powers, even if God were acting to help you.

That's pretty much what I've been saying in this thread so far. Plausible deniability. Faith is still important.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I do not think you are a lost cause and I was healed well after I was already a Christian. No one is a lost cause, the bible says Jesus Christ saves to the uttermost.
What I was portraying was scripture spoken by Jesus. I did not mean it directly at you, but in general.
Many people (unbelievers) are not honest, they say they think Christianity is ridi ful, I was always in and out of fellowship with God...to my own hurt....have to go for now...

Many people (unbelievers) are not honest, they say they think Christianity is ridiculous but what they hide deep within, is that they don't want God to be real. They do not want to be held accountable for their actions, their sinfulness, of which we are all guilty.

Why make this claim when it's obviously not true? From what I can tell, the vast majority of "unbelievers" do not believe God is real simply because of a lack of evidence. What's more, I have seen no evidence that Christians are any more likely to 'want to be held accountable for their actions' than non-Christians. In fact, beliefs such as 'original sin' and 'salvation by grace' serve to make Christians less accountable. Not only do those who hold those beliefs dismiss their 'sins' as unavoidable, they also believe that they are 'righteous' even though they continue to commit them.

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
[b]Many people (unbelievers) are not honest, they say they think Christianity is ridiculous but what they hide deep within, is that they don't want God to be real. They do not want to be held accountable for their actions, their sinfulness, of which we are all guilty.

Why make this claim when it's obviously not true? From what I can tell, the vast ...[text shortened]... also believe that they are 'righteous' even though they continue to commit them.[/b]

True for some Christians. A committed Christian hates sin, even though he/she still has a sin nature. In Ephesians it says God will bring up our present sin, so that we can repent and be forgiven. A committed Christian has a daily battle to choose to follow Jesus Christ or Satan via the world. All the influence and temptation is with us every day. That is why I immerse myself in God's Word. It is our light, our manual for how to live an abundant life, with joy, peace and the presence of God every day. Daily reading and prayer are a must.
It is very easy to fall back into the rut of the "walking dead" without hope and without God in the world. It is also true that some Christians knowing they are sons and daughters of God, give up, and give in to sin. Some never regain their fellowship with God. It is a sad thing to go that route.
Even so, they will be saved on the last day, though without reward of any kind. They will also be as the bible says, "ashamed at His coming".
There is also some kind of judgement to fall on such, especially if they are fornicators. what that is, I do not know...but it is mentioned here...
1 Thess 4:3-8

3 It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality; 4 that each of you should learn to control his own body in a way that is holy and honorable, 5 not in passionate lust like the heathen, who do not know God; 6 and that in this matter no one should wrong his brother or take advantage of him. The Lord will punish men for all such sins, as we have already told you and warned you. 7 For God did not call us to be impure, but to live a holy life. 8 Therefore, he who rejects this instruction does not reject man but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
NIV
This is speaking of "saved" Christians...

Originally posted by checkbaiter
True for some Christians. A committed Christian hates sin, even though he/she still has a sin nature. In Ephesians it says God will bring up our present sin, so that we can repent and be forgiven. A committed Christian has a daily battle to choose to follow Jesus Christ or Satan via the world. All the influence and temptation is with us every day. That i ...[text shortened]... but God, who gives you his Holy Spirit.
NIV
This is speaking of "saved" Christians...

You haven't really addressed the points of my post:

1) The vast majority of "unbelievers" do not believe God is real simply because of a lack of evidence, yet you have claimed otherwise.

2) I have seen no evidence that Christians are any more likely to 'want to be held accountable for their actions' than non-Christians. There are many non-Christians who do hold themselves 'accountable for their actions'.

3) Beliefs such as 'original sin' and 'salvation by grace' serve to make Christians less accountable. Not only do those who hold those beliefs dismiss their 'sins' as unavoidable, they also believe that they are 'righteous' even though they continue to commit them. Realistically, even those "committed Christians [who] hate sin", can and do "dismiss their sins as unavoidable" and "believe they are 'righteous' even though they continue to commit them". As such, they don't really "hold themselves accountable for their actions".

Are you willing to address them?

Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
You haven't really addressed the points of my post:

1) The vast majority of "unbelievers" do not believe God is real simply because of a lack of evidence, yet you have claimed otherwise.

2) I have seen no evidence that Christians are any more likely to 'want to be held accountable for their actions' than non-Christians. There are many non-Christians ...[text shortened]... s accountable for their actions".

Are you willing to address them?

1. Lack of evidence is only in their corrupted minds, seeing that evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, plants, weather, etc. Chaos does not produce order, intelligent design does.

2, and 3. I explained these reasons where you said I did not.