"Former Christians"

Originally posted by checkbaiter
1. Lack of evidence is only in their corrupted minds, seeing that evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, plants, weather, etc. Chaos does not produce order, intelligent design does.

My mind may be corrupted, but in my corrupted mind, the main reason for my lack of belief in God, is the lack of evidence - not a fear of being held accountable. I would say the same is probably true for most atheists on this site (though I obviously cannot prove it).
But I would be interested to know how you can be sure that it is not your mind that is corrupted.
We have two people, with opposing views, who are very sure of themselves. Is it possible to determine which of us has the corrupted mind and which not? (Or maybe both of us are corrupted).

I believe that science, logical discussion, etc can resolve the issue, but thats just my corrupted mind speaking. For example, I would challenge your claim that chaos does not produce order, and ask how you know this. We could discuss it at length, and I believe I could prove my case quite conclusively that chaos can produce order and frequently is observed to do so. But would that resolve the problem? After all, in my corrupted state I might think I am making a case whereas in fact, I am talking nonsense?

Originally posted by twhitehead
My mind may be corrupted, but in my corrupted mind, the main reason for my lack of belief in God, is the lack of evidence - not a fear of being held accountable. I would say the same is probably true for most atheists on this site (though I obviously cannot prove it).
But I would be interested to know how you can be sure that it is not your mind that is ...[text shortened]... , in my corrupted state I might think I am making a case whereas in fact, I am talking nonsense?

Do you have a learning deficiency or do you just keep your head up your arse most of the time?

Originally posted by twhitehead
My mind may be corrupted, but in my corrupted mind, the main reason for my lack of belief in God, is the lack of evidence - not a fear of being held accountable. I would say the same is probably true for most atheists on this site (though I obviously cannot prove it).
But I would be interested to know how you can be sure that it is not your mind that is ...[text shortened]... , in my corrupted state I might think I am making a case whereas in fact, I am talking nonsense?

You believe science can resolve what issue? You see, I cannot prove to you that God has spoken to me, I cannot prove to you anything.
I believe God has called all men and woman to salvation, but not all respond. I have, and He longs for you to do likewise.
God's desire is for all men to be saved. Without exception, but not all will. Many choose to be their own God. They want to make their own way, so to speak.
God created man in His own image, but many make Him in their image.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
You believe science can resolve what issue?

The issue of determining which of us has a corrupted mind.

You see, I cannot prove to you that God has spoken to me, I cannot prove to you anything.
I never asked nor expected you to prove that God had spoken to you. But what you had claimed was:

evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, plants, weather, etc. Chaos does not produce order, intelligent design does

I would normally expect you to prove that, but it is apparently your claim that my corrupted mind is incapable of recognizing it. I thought some discussion might be useful to determine whether it is really my mind that is corrupted or yours. I think the fact that you carefully tried to switch the subject and throw in a strawman tells us everything: it is your mind that is corrupted and you are fully aware of it.

Originally posted by twhitehead
The issue of determining which of us has a corrupted mind.

[b]You see, I cannot prove to you that God has spoken to me, I cannot prove to you anything.
I never asked nor expected you to prove that God had spoken to you. But what you had claimed was:
[quote]evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, pla ...[text shortened]... a strawman tells us everything: it is your mind that is corrupted and you are fully aware of it.[/b]

Again you are wrong, your mind cannot discern spiritual matters because you are carnal. You rely entirely on your senses. I can communicate with you til the cows come home, but it is meaningless unless God draws you, makes you understand.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
Again you are wrong, your mind cannot discern spiritual matters because you are carnal. You rely entirely on your senses. I can communicate with you til the cows come home, but it is meaningless unless God draws you, makes you understand.

But these are not spiritual matters. And you have refused to communicate with me because you are wrong, and you know you are wrong - said another way: you lied, you got caught, you can't bring yourself to admit it.

Originally posted by sumydid
And I had sciatica, went to a chiropractor, and he made it worse. So much worse in fact, he refused to collect any funds for my last several visits.. out of guilt to be sure. I ended up dragging my left foot behind me as I walked, and barely avoided surgery, finally finding relief in a special type of epideral. I have those spinal injections as needed which averages about once every couple of years.

Well, you are living in the most litigious society in the world.

How much compensation did you get?

Originally posted by twhitehead
But these are [b]not spiritual matters. And you have refused to communicate with me because you are wrong, and you know you are wrong - said another way: you lied, you got caught, you can't bring yourself to admit it.[/b]

I love you TW...my heart aches for you, only wish you would give Jesus a chance..🙂

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I love you TW...my heart aches for you, only wish you would give Jesus a chance..🙂

And I only hope you manage to throw off your delusions and learn to be a little bit more honest with yourself and others. I know you think your lying for Jesus, but thats practically a self contradiction right there.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
1. Lack of evidence is only in their corrupted minds, seeing that evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, plants, weather, etc. Chaos does not produce order, intelligent design does.

2, and 3. I explained these reasons where you said I did not.

1. Lack of evidence is only in their corrupted minds, seeing that evidence is everywhere to be found by just looking around at the order of the universe, plants, weather, etc. Chaos does not produce order, intelligent design does.

While this explains why YOU believe in God, it does not address the issue which is your assertion that non-Christians do not believe in God because they do not 'want to be held accountable for their actions'.

Are you willing to address this point?

2, and 3. I explained these reasons where you said I did not.

Instead of addressing the points, you explained your beliefs as to how and why a 'committed Christian' should live, rather than address the points. Why are you pretending that you addressed those points when you clearly did not?

If you aren't willing to address the points, then just say so - instead of continuing this charade?

Originally posted by twhitehead
... learn to be a little bit more honest ... I know you think your lying for Jesus...

How is it that you KNOW this? Scientific method? Telepathy?

LOL

And in the same post you criticize the other poster for making a strawman statement.

Oh, the irony.

Originally posted by sumydid
How is it that you KNOW this? Scientific method? Telepathy?

Telepathy.

He made a statement about the universe ('Chaos does not produce order'😉. I challenged it. He refused to discuss it but instead claimed that I would be unable to understand without Gods help.

If he had said 2+2=5, an equally false statement, and claimed that nobody would understand it without Gods help, you yourself would probably recommend he see a psychiatrist.

Both he and I know that the claim he made is false. The only difference between it and 2+2=5, is he thinks he can get away with it by bluffing.

Whats your opinion? Why do you think he lied? Or do you think he believes the claim and genuinely believes it cannot be known without Gods help? Do you believe it cannot be known without Gods help?

PS. I call 'strawman' when I see it, and am OK with others calling it on me. Just be prepared to substantiate the call if I don't agree. As for telepathy, wasn't it you that said you knew why atheists were in this forum, or am I confusing you with someone else?

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I cannot prove to you that God has spoken to me, I cannot prove to you anything.

There are questions I could ask you that fall into either of these categories:

1) I have reason to think no one alive knows the correct answer to.
2) I have reason to think only I know the answer to.

If you were to give me a plausible-sounding answer to a question in the first category, or the answer I know to be correct to a question in the second category, it would prove to me that God has spoken to you.

Originally posted by Paul Dirac II
There are questions I could ask you that fall into either of these categories:

1) I have reason to think no one alive knows the correct answer to.
2) I have reason to think only I know the answer to.

If you were to give me a plausible-sounding answer to a question in the first category, or the answer I know to be correct to a question in the second category, it would prove to me that God has spoken to you.

Most Christians hear the voice of the Lord in one form or another.
How will you know if the question is answered correctly?
Seems like you already have the answers...have a nice day.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
How will you know if the question is answered correctly?
Seems like you already have the answers...have a nice day.

I think you misunderstood what he said. He said, if you can tell him the correct answer to a question he already knows the answer too, but you would not know the answer to other than by divine means, then he may be convinced that you have heard the God speak. Although considering your recent dishonesty, God might not be the first supernatural source that comes to mind.