17 Apr 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell it is my view, robbie. So we will perhaps just agree to disagree. To me the RC church and JW are clear examples of deeply hierarchical organisations driven by and founded on a form corporate ideology, in a way that is more obvious and exemplary than - perhaps - any other mainstream Christian denomination that I can think of off the top of my head.
hierarchies are enshrined?
The fact that you are comfortable with it [it being, the status and power of elders, the exact same thing being read out in every Kingdom Hall in the world, something you are proud of, as far as I am aware] or that you feel "responsibility to help others" etc. etc., is not really relevant to the point I am making.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFThe Rig Ved, the first of the 4 Vedas has enough mention of doubt that was there in the minds of even the Sages who enunciated the various Suktas.
I contend that a constant embrace of doubt offers people a way to resist the intellectual and spiritual constraints of ideology, a means of resisting religionist dogma and its purported "authority", and resisting speculation being turned into "certainty" which in turn becomes a crutch which so often seems, in turn, to extinguish genuine curiosity. Doubt helps to ...[text shortened]... ing. It is the essence of informed free will.
Does anyone see doubt in a similar light?
Most famous is the Naasadiya Sukta ( no. 129 ) in the X th Mandala ( Chapter ) of the Rigved. This Sukta is about Creation. At the end, the Sage says :- He, the first origin of this creation,whether he formed it all or did not form it, whose eye controls this world in highest heaven, He, verily knows it, or perhaps he knows not. ( as translated into English by Prof. Max Muller ).
In the VIII th Mandala, Sukta 100, the Sage Nembhargava says :- There is no Indra, who has ever seen him ? To whom are we to direct the song of praise ?
In the X th Mandala, Sukta 121, says:- What God shall we honour by means of sacrifice?
A prayer is therefore made made to invoke Faith ( Shraddha ) requesting it to endow the humans with belief, Sukta 151 of the X th Mandala.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobie"(James 1:6-8) . . .for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven by the wind and
Plenty of straw for you, you assumed that I was taking the position that Christianity
and other religions was in your own words, 'all the stability and unchanging certainty
that you claim for Christianity or any religion', when in fact i claimed nothing of the
sort, I did not make any claims that I am aware of, but in case i am accused of lying ...[text shortened]... lf fuelled not by independent thought, but in spite of and contrary to independent
thought.
blown about. In fact, let not that man suppose that he will receive anything from
Jehovah; he is an indecisive man, unsteady in all his ways."
Your quote from page one.
"Plenty of straw for you, you assumed that I was taking the position that Christianity
and other religions was in your own words, 'all the stability and unchanging certainty
that you claim for Christianity or any religion', when in fact i claimed nothing of the
sort, I did not make any claims that I am aware of, but in case i am accused of lying "
Your statement from page 6.
It is clear you cannot be bothered to read other peoples posts carefully, but the least you can do is read your own.
Are you aware that doubt and certainty are diametrically opposed states of mind, you cannot reasonably claim both.
" People bemoan modern art because it challenges social convention, not because they understand it, "
Not sure what you are saying here my point was that 'people' have taken the avant garde and made it the social convention despite the protestations of the 'experts' , that is why independent thought engendered by doubts concerning the validity of social conventions/norms is positive, it moves things on and reconstructs the social conventions/norms. Again you really should read peoples posts more carefully.
"in fact, there is a Scottish painter Vetrianno, who paints the most banal scenes of
couples dining on beaches with fiddlers present in a very traditional way, critics
loathe it and rightly so, but it appeals to the romantic in people and he sells them by the cartload and example of social convention overcoming independent thought, so what have you to say for yourself now?"
LOL
in fact, there is a Scottish painter Vetrianno, who paints the most banal scenes of
couples dining on beaches with fiddlers present in a very traditional way, critics
loathe it and rightly so, but it appeals to the romantic in people and he sells them by the cartload and example of ( independent thought overcoming social convention, )so what have you to say for yourself now?
Please note how in the edited version the section in parenthesis actually makes sense.
I never claimed that 1,000,000 people marching stopped a U.S led war (why would it) I was claiming that it was an aspect of the electorate led political pressure that resulted in the British govt withdrawing our troops to the airport and actually vacating Iraq much sooner than our U.S led allies would have preferred.
I now see you skipping merrily up the 'yellow brick road' hand in hand with dorothy, the tin man, and the cowardly lion; bye robbie, bye.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFI think it totally is relevant, for there is no corporate ladder to climb, I could certainly
Well it is my view, robbie. So we will perhaps just agree to disagree. To me the RC church and JW are clear examples of deeply hierarchical organisations driven by and founded on a form corporate ideology, in a way that is more obvious and exemplary than - perhaps - any other mainstream Christian denomination that I can think of off the top of my head.
The f ...[text shortened]... el "responsibility to help others" etc. etc., is not really relevant to the point I am making.
go to the world headquarters of Jehovahs witnesses and volunteer to work there no
problem if I am in good standing, indeed which other corporate entity is self financing
and relies upon unpaid volunteers to carry out its goals and aims? Do you view all
charities in this way FMF? what is the salary of an Elder, do tell.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieI think it totally is relevant, for there is no corporate ladder to climb, I could certainly go to the world headquarters of Jehovahs witnesses and volunteer to work there no problem if I am in good standing, indeed which other corporate entity is self financing and relies upon unpaid volunteers to carry out its goals and aims? Do you view all charities in this way FMF? what is the salary of an Elder, do tell.
Charities are corporations, yes. Of course. The degree to which they are animated by 'ideology' varies greatly. The salary of your Elders is a red herring. They exert power over members and control the JW ideology. A minimal or seemingly non-existent "corporate ladder to climb" does not mean the organisation isn't a corporation, it does not mean it doesn't have a hierarchy, and it does not mean it isn't infused with a specific ideology and corporate structure. Your question "which other corporate entity is self financing and relies upon unpaid volunteers to carry out its goals and aims?" is not really relevant to anything I have been saying.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by rvsakhadeoI say doubt is healthy. It is positive. It is life-affirming. It is the essence of informed free will. Do you agree?
The Rig Ved, the first of the 4 Vedas has enough mention of doubt that was there in the minds of even the Sages who enunciated the various Suktas.
Most famous is the Naasadiya Sukta ( no. 129 ) in the X th Mandala ( Chapter ) of the Rigved. This Sukta is about Creation. At the end, the Sage says :- He, the first origin of this creation,whether he formed ...[text shortened]... Faith ( Shraddha ) requesting it to endow the humans with belief, Sukta 151 of the X th Mandala.
17 Apr 12
Robbie, you do understand the way I am using the word "corporation", right? I am not referring to 'public limited companies' or anything as narrow as that. Just FYI, because to deny that the RC or the JW organisation are corporate entities suggests you may have the wrong end of the vocabulary stick! 😉
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFControl the JW ideology, LOL, thats a laugh, a local Elder has no more say in our
[b]I think it totally is relevant, for there is no corporate ladder to climb, I could certainly go to the world headquarters of Jehovahs witnesses and volunteer to work there no problem if I am in good standing, indeed which other corporate entity is self financing and relies upon unpaid volunteers to carry out its goals and aims? Do you view all charities in th ...[text shortened]... o carry out its goals and aims?" is not really relevant to anything I have been saying.
understanding of Biblical truths than you or I. These truths are self evident. As for the
assertion of hierarchical structure, it too is rather amusing, every organisation needs to
be organised otherwise its not an organisation, is it.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFyes i was thinking in terms of corporation, as in a company, with director, executives,
Robbie, you do understand the way I am using the word "corporation", right? I am not referring to 'public limited companies' or anything as narrow as that. Just FYI, because to deny that the RC or the JW organisation are corporate entities suggests you may have the wrong end of the vocabulary stick! 😉
etc etc.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFDoubt is good. It is the sign of an active and curious mind. It is the starting point of a good debate, a good quest for truth. However, like all tools of the Intellect, we must keep it in check, and not allow it to control all of our actions, though. The discriminating faculty called Buddhi in Sanskrit must be allowed to exercise control, along with ample doses of common sense.
I say doubt is healthy. It is positive. It is life-affirming. It is the essence of informed free will. Do you agree?
17 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieControl the JW ideology, LOL, thats a laugh, a local Elder has no more say in our understanding of Biblical truths than you or I. These truths are self evident. As for the assertion of hierarchical structure, it too is rather amusing, every organisation needs to be organised otherwise its not an organisation, is it.
That you find the ideology of the corporate entity to be self evidently "true" is not relevant to what I am saying. Are the Elders in charge? Yes. Can anything about the corporation change without their consent? No. Do they invite dissent rooted in individual reflection? No. Do they encourage genuine debate that has the potential to influence the direction of the organization? No. Do people get excluded for not complying with the ideology? Yes, of course.
The fact that you are happy with the status and the power of elders, and your relationship with them in the corporate context. And the fact that you are happy that the entity you are a member of organizes the exact same thing to be read out in every Kingdom Hall in the world, all the time, or that it does good works, is all irrelevant to what I am saying about ideology and doubt.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by FMFwe are doing rather well despite your well meaning calls for dissent, how this would
[b]Control the JW ideology, LOL, thats a laugh, a local Elder has no more say in our understanding of Biblical truths than you or I. These truths are self evident. As for the assertion of hierarchical structure, it too is rather amusing, every organisation needs to be organised otherwise its not an organisation, is it.
That you find the ideology of the ...[text shortened]... e, or that it does good works, is all irrelevant to what I am saying about ideology and doubt.[/b]
benefit us in anyway you have not stated, indeed, is faction and dissent to be preferred
over unity, how so? Is the individual more important than the whole, why? Its rather
hard to argue with success and successful we are, sorry your vision for a thousand
million independent little Caesars all ruling from their little rooms all full of mirrors,
issuing edicts of 'I think this', or 'I think that', does not wash. We are One.
17 Apr 12
Originally posted by robbie carrobieThank you. I could scarcely have illustrated what I am on about better, if I had made something up.
we are doing rather well despite your well meaning calls for dissent, how this would
benefit us in anyway you have not stated, indeed, is faction and dissent to be preferred
over unity, how so? Is the individual more important than the whole, why? Its rather
hard to argue with success and successful we are, sorry your vision for a thousand
...[text shortened]... f mirrors,
issuing edicts of 'I think this', or 'I think that', does not wash. We are One.
17 Apr 12
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieWell, your circumstances are pitiable, whether you realize it or not.
we are doing rather well despite your well meaning calls for dissent, how this would
benefit us in anyway you have not stated, indeed, is faction and dissent to be preferred
over unity, how so? Is the individual more important than the whole, why? Its rather
hard to argue with success and successful we are, sorry your vision for a thousand
...[text shortened]... f mirrors,
issuing edicts of 'I think this', or 'I think that', does not wash. We are One.
I once had a discussion with galveston75 where he basically said that thinking for oneself is never a live option for a wise person. (Here would be the link to that discussion: Thread 132888, page 4/5 for example). I mean, WOW! What a crazy thing to say!