Dick Cheney's lesbian daughter

Originally posted by josephw
To my way of thinking, which is biblically based, homosexuality is a sin. And as such, like all other sins, is a repudiation and rejection of God.
This is just the simple, easy, short and to the point answer.

Yes, and in my world, the worst thing is intolerant bigots. There are way too many of those.

Originally posted by amannion
Yes, but as you rightly pointed out I don't believe in God, so any morality based on such a creature is meaningless to me. So my question remains - do you seriously believe homosexuality is somehow to blame for a perceived shortcoming in your society?

My friend, that is a loaded question.
Yes, in as far as it effects the lives of those who engage in it, and the subsequent effects on society in general.

I don't really know you or what you do or don't know about the homosexual community, so don't think I'm trying to out smart you or anything like that. But from my perspective, and from what I have seen, homosexuals are not as happy as the popular media and culture is portraying them as. Although there are some homosexuals that are doing just fine, many are in misery.
I'm not statistically prepared to prove that point, except to say, based on my observation, they are suffering from the effects of that lifestyle choice.

I would like to say one more thing in my defense. If I am right in my judgement of this issue, then my motive is out of love, which it is, and not from hate or bigotry as some accuse me of. I don't DO anything to cause harm to anyone. I'm simply voicing my beliefs.

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Yes, and in my world, the worst thing is intolerant bigots. There are way too many of those.

Do you really think I'm one of those?
Does the voicing of my opinions and beliefs make me an intolerant bigot?
The truth is I'm very tolerant. I have never done anything to interfere with a persons right to chose his or her lifestyle. As a matter of fact I support freedom of choice. But I oppose bad choices, but not to the extent of using force.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your reply. I think I do that sometimes.

Originally posted by josephw
My friend, that is a loaded question.
Yes, in as far as it effects the lives of those who engage in it, and the subsequent effects on society in general.

I don't really know you or what you do or don't know about the homosexual community, so don't think I'm trying to out smart you or anything like that. But from my perspective, and from what I have seen ...[text shortened]... accuse me of. I don't DO anything to cause harm to anyone. I'm simply voicing my beliefs.

I do believe you think what you say is right. But I think you're mixing a misguided use of scripture and your own social upbringing to develop a view that something some people do is abhorent.
Of course, you're not on your own.

I don't claim any special knowledge of homosexuality or those who are homosexuals. I know some and like all people some are happy and some are sad. Some do bad things and some do good. Some are smart and some are stupid.
But none of this springs from their sexual orientation.

I think you would like it to. That would neaten up the world for you, fitting everything into it's appropriate place.
But the world isn't like that.
It's messy and complicated and full of amazing variety.

Originally posted by amannion
I do believe you think what you say is right. But I think you're mixing a misguided use of scripture and your own social upbringing to develop a view that something some people do is abhorent.
Of course, you're not on your own.

I don't claim any special knowledge of homosexuality or those who are homosexuals. I know some and like all people some are hap ...[text shortened]... .
But the world isn't like that.
It's messy and complicated and full of amazing variety.

Where would you draw the line in terms of what is sexaully immoral or sexually disfunctional or would you at all?

Originally posted by whodey
Where would you draw the line in terms of what is sexaully immoral or sexually disfunctional or would you at all?

I would draw the line at consenting adults. If you enjoy doing whatever you do with your willing partner, that's fine by me - as long as both of you are legal adults.

Originally posted by amannion
I would draw the line at consenting adults. If you enjoy doing whatever you do with your willing partner, that's fine by me - as long as both of you are legal adults.

The reason I ask is because it seems to me that there are sexually "dysfunctional" tendencies just as there are mental and physical dysfuncional problems. I think the problem, however, is that such notions are taboo in society. For example, the desire to have sex with children in my mind is a dysfunction even if they do not act upon it. I think we can agree with that, no? Mental problems are also comparitive to sexual problems in that they are both somewhat taboo. However, physical problems are not as taboo as mental or sexual problems. It is my opinion, however, that what ever can go wrong will and does go wrong with the human body, soul, and mind. We are, after all, a fallen and flawed race. Therefore, it seems somewhat odd knowing this but at the same time feeling that you cannot mention them in order for people not to feel as though you are attacking them personally or being a bigot or homophobic etc.

In regards to homosexuality, however, it was not long ago that the psychiatric community referred to homosexuality as a "dysfuncion". However, over time it was changed to being referred to as "functional" behavoir. But is this functional behavoir in terms of evolutionary developement? My personal opinion as to why it is not referred to as dysfunctional behavoir any more is that they can still function within the society that they live just as you or I. Also, how can homosexuality be treated from a scientific viewpoint? Since the scientific community cannot treat their desires and they can function normally within the society they live in, why then not just tell them they are "OK" and avoid self esteem issues? It is much the same dilemma as the adult who is attracted to children. How can we treat them? I have heard many say that pedophiles are "untreatable" and that we should just lock them up for life. When talking about the two, however, I am not attempting to compare them on the basis of being equals, rather, I am merely comparing homosexuals and pedophiles to make a point. I am sure I have offended some by saying these things. In fact, I hear in some places in Europe such talk is so taboo it might even land you in jail. I do not mean to offend anyone, yet I feel as though these things need to be said.

Originally posted by whodey
The reason I ask is because it seems to me that there are sexually "dysfunctional" tendencies just as there are mental and physical dysfuncional problems. I think the problem, however, is that such notions are taboo in society. For example, the desire to have sex with children in my mind is a dysfunction even if they do not act upon it. I think we can agre ...[text shortened]... l. I do not mean to offend anyone, yet I feel as though these things need to be said.

But to label something dysfunctional presupposes something else to be functional. Essentially, your dysfunction may well not be the same as mine.
I don't see homosexuality as anything abnormal at all - it simply is one aspect of many in our complex world.
You tread a dangerous line in making comparisons between paedophilia and homsoexuality. Many people seem to connect the two but they have no relation at all.

We are, after all, a fallen and flawed race
I would of course, completely dispute you on this one.

Originally posted by twhitehead
So if I have a child with my girl friend that I am living with which in my culture is as good as married then my child is not illegitimate?

I don't know. Here in the U.S., some states, if not all, have common law statutes. I'm not familiar with the laws exactly. But this is a tangent from the subject we were on. Isn't it?

Originally posted by twhitehead
How do you know it is a sin now. You said that it was OK to stone homosexuals in the past but not any longer, isn't it possible that it is also no-longer a sin?

I'm quite certain it still is. Sin is sin. Righteousness is righteousness.
Please allow me to explain something that is difficult for me to understand much less explain. Israel was created by God. We sit here thousands of years later and debate about something that happened in a remote little burg somewhere that we read about in a book. It's just what it is. That's the story. So what do we do with it now?

I have never claimed we should do what God told the Jews to do to anybody. I wish some of you folks would understand where it is I am coming from and stop accusing me of hate mongering!

Originally posted by josephw
Do you really think I'm one of those?
Does the voicing of my opinions and beliefs make me an intolerant bigot?
The truth is I'm very tolerant. I have never done anything to interfere with a persons right to chose his or her lifestyle. As a matter of fact I support freedom of choice. But I oppose bad choices, but not to the extent of using force.

Forgive me if I misinterpreted your reply. I think I do that sometimes.

Not really mate, but I don't think I'd want to "come out" if I were one of your children (and I was gay, of course!), is all.

Would you place any limits on the jobs or positions one could hold based on sexual preference?? What about a gay president?!

Originally posted by amannion
I do believe you think what you say is right. But I think you're mixing a misguided use of scripture and your own social upbringing to develop a view that something some people do is abhorent.
Of course, you're not on your own.

I don't claim any special knowledge of homosexuality or those who are homosexuals. I know some and like all people some are hap ...[text shortened]... .
But the world isn't like that.
It's messy and complicated and full of amazing variety.

In principle I agree with some of your points. I constantly strive to examine my motives and will probably always need improvement. I'm certain of it.

But here we are again at that impasse. It seems to boil down to whether or not we were created. If so, then there are rules to live by, given to us by our maker.

I'll have to take issue with the "misguided use of scripture" though. Do you have a working knowledge of the bible? I'm just asking because that would make for an interesting discussion. Do you think?

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Not really mate, but I don't think I'd want to "come out" if I were one of your children (and I was gay, of course!), is all.

Would you place any limits on the jobs or positions one could hold based on sexual preference?? What about a gay president?!

I love my children, and they know it. I would still love them if they were gay.

I don't necessarily think a persons sexual preference would be detrimental to job performance. I would probably not vote for one running for president because that would probably mean they are a democrat. LOL 😉

Originally posted by josephw
I love my children, and they know it. I would still love them if they were gay.

I don't necessarily think a persons sexual preference would be detrimental to job performance. I would probably not vote for one running for president because that would probably mean they are a democrat. LOL 😉

Haha, Joe, you can still make me laugh. But come on, we all know about public schoolboys!!!

[edit; is being president only about your capacity to do the job? I think not. Public image must come into it somewhere, otherwise, why all the problem with the Clinton - Lebowski thing?]

Originally posted by scottishinnz
Haha, Joe, you can still make me laugh. But come on, we all know about public schoolboys!!!

[edit; is being president only about your capacity to do the job? I think not. Public image must come into it somewhere, otherwise, why all the problem with the Clinton - Lebowski thing?]

I wish it were just about the capacity to do the job. Politics are ruining things. Power and control is the name of the game.

Oddly enough I think I would have had a great time partying with Bill. He's got a great personality. If he had been morally and ethically strait I think he could have gotten a 3rd term.

I think you mean Lewinski.