Could "perish" simply mean die?

@sonship said
@Kevin-Eleven

I think it's time we start treating religious delusions as mental disorders, whether voluntary or involuntary, and no matter what traditional texts are involved.

How in the world am I suppose to get much benefit from that statement?
That's just a blanket denunciation of taking anything in the New Testament as a matter of mental illne ...[text shortened]... that statement you are finished with this discussion as you find it damaging to your mental health?

Was I too hard on you Kevin?
Maybe I misunderstood your purpose for that post?

@sonship

Within a Christian one can find:
a) Christ
b) two wolves
c) a hornet's nest
d) organs and stuff
e) all of the above

@sonship said
Who told you the apocryphal book of Enoch was taken out of the Bible?

I don't see it within the current Canon of 66 books. What can you tell me ?

@kevin-eleven said
@sonship

Within a Christian one can find:
a) Christ
b) two wolves
c) a hornet's nest
d) organs and stuff
e) all of the above

Thanks, Now what can you find within the average internet troll?
a.)
b.)
c.)
etc. ?
etc. ?

@sonship said
@Rajk999

Not a word was said to refute "It is finished" uttered by Jesus.

But that's only in one version of the story (John).

In Matthew and Mark, Jesus says something like, "What the hell, Dad?"

@Kevin-Eleven

They cover OTHER details.
They do not tell ANOTHER version.

If they had all been identical then then some astute historians would
have been suspicious of collusion.

@medullah

You sent me back studying myself for a few hours.

All I would say right now is very brief.
There are three classifications of books pertaining to the OT canon.
Canon meaning somthing like standard rule of books we recognize as from God.

1.) Books accepted by all rabbis
2.) Books questioned by some (perhaps late in being OK-ed by all)
3.) Books rejected by all (as to their canonicity )

1 Enoch and 11 Enoch are of the third category.
Books (among about 18 we know of ) rejected by all the rabbis as to
authoritative inspiration of God speaking.

Having said that it must be noted that being rejected for canonicity did not mean:

a.) There was no truth in them
b.) They were not spiritual
c.) They were not historically interesting or interesting on other grounds
d.) They were never quoted by canonical books. (some single sentence or referred to)

That's good enough for now.

@medullah said
So in response to that last question I'm trying to work it out. At the moment tighten up on the bad habits (too much alcohol in my case) and other little things; try and give others more thought and round off a few burrs. I'm in watchman mode at the moment, as anyone familiar with the scriptures and understands them should be.

Okay, another poster who believes that their own somewhat unspecified efforts will save them.

Interesting.

@sonship said
If they had all been identical then then some astute historians would have been suspicious of collusion.

Maybe some astute writers thought of this, too.

@sonship said
@Suzianne
[quote] My opinion.

The Hebrew word apollymi is listed in Strong's as G622. It is translated 33 times in the KJV as "perish", but 26 times as "destroy", as in "be destroyed".

In John 3:16, my opinion is that it means "eternal destruction". Liljo's post talks about this. Obviously it means more than just "die", since many have died since then, including apostl ...[text shortened]... at manner? - ". . . You, Son of God . . . Have You come here before the time to torment us?"

Demons, fallen angels and Satan's lieutenants are all not human.

Their place is in the lake of fire.

@Suzianne

Demons, fallen angels and Satan's lieutenants are all not human.

Their place is in the lake of fire.

Thankyou.

I fully realized that the evil spirits there in that "legion" were not humans.
Thankyou.

@Kevin-Eleven

In Matthew and Mark, Jesus says something like, "What the hell, Dad?"

The frivolity of your reply turns me off a little (perhaps by design, I don't know).

But to comment and somehow relate this to my OP is a challenge that intrigues me a little. Could "perish" simply mean die? is the question. The [side] issue you raise is there is a curious difference in the attitude of Jesus towards His death.

The three gospels Matthew, Mark, and Luke all cover His moments of agonizing battle of temptation in facing His obedience to complete His work. Though John does not include Christ's "passion" in the Garden of Gethsemane but it is not WITHOUT His moment of difficulty facing His "hour".

"Now is My soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save Me out of this hour. But for this reason I have come to this hour. Father, glorify Your name.

Then a voice came out of heaven: I have both glorified it and will glorify it again." (John 12:27,28)

This shows the crises in His soul at arriving at the hour of His bearing the judgment of God upon the world and Satan. He viewed His death as the judgment upon the author of sin, Satan.

"Now is the judgment of this world; now shall the ruler of this world be cast out. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself?" (vs. 31,32) .

This one being lifted up to bear the judgment of God upon Satan and the world is God Himself in a man in John.

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. . . . And the Word became flesh and tabernacled among us." (John 1:1,2. 14)

He said His death was going to be the reality of the symbolic lifting up of the bronze serpent in the wilderness.

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so [must] the Son of Man be lifted up, That everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that everyone who believes into Him would not perish, but would have eternal life." (3:14-16)

1.) This was the death of God-man for us each personally.

2.) This was also the judgment of the serpent Satan, the everlasting perpetual enemy of God and deceiver of all mankind.

3.) I think God could go NO FURTHER to demonstrate His love for sinners that they not participate in the divine judgment of God upon all the world, sin, Satan then to lay down His life for us in the Son Jesus Christ.

4.) If we reject His offer or procrastinate as we look around to see [if] it is fair to the other person, what will be consequences, the penalty for telling God we prefer not that He come as a man to die in our place for such a terrible judgment?

That is a question.

" . . . everyone who believes into Him may have eternal life . . . would not perish, but would have eternal life."

It reads to me like the ONLY thing that matters is to be reconciled to God in Jesus Christ. We are here arguing about what it could mean to perish. And perhaps we should understand what Jesus meant. But at the end of the day the Gospel comes across to me as - to be reconciled to God in Jesus Christ is a matter above which no other matter has greater importance . . . period.

At the end of that chapter John the Baptist says something about being reconciled to God through the Son of God or not.

"He who believes into the Son has eternal life, but he who disobeys the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abides upon him." (v.36 RcV)

In this chapter there are these opposites I think:

eternal life / perish
eternal life / the wrath of God
believe into the Him / disobeys the Son

Then there is the Son of Man lifted up for judgment / the world condemned
And Jesus says the condemnation is that light has come into the world in Him.

"And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light, for their works were evil." (v.19)

I could go on. I hope this is a help to someone.

@Suzianne

Demons, fallen angels and Satan's lieutenants are all not human.

Their place is in the lake of fire.

Now if for a human being (not a demon) it is said the same destination could be had, what basis could I have to assume the result might be different?

That is not a rhetorical question but a honest question.

You told me that the demons go to the lake of fire.

"And if ANYONE . . . was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

Ie. I should expect that going to the same place for "anyone" would have a different result because ___________________________________________?"

Suzianne, what would be my ground for expecting a different result from what the demons feared in Matt. 8:29.

Same place . . . but different result BECAUSE _____________?

Give me some hope here Suzianne. Why I should hope for a different result for "anyone" else who is sent to said lake of fire?

I'm all ears.

@divegeester said
Okay, another poster who believes that their own somewhat unspecified efforts will save them.

Interesting.

You are correct. Its there !!

Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand,
Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire,
prepared for the devil and his angels:
For You did not trust in my finished work,
I was hungry and ye gave me meat
I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink:
I was a stranger, and ye took me in:
naked, and ye clothed me.
Ye practiced works salvation
Ye legalistic Pharisees
You thought your own efforts could save you
Depart from me
(OSAS Bible - Diveson Chap 25:41-43 )