Beware the writings of the Watchman

@caljust said
The reason why I stopped reading "The Spiritual Man" back in the 80s, was that what he calls my "soul", that is emotions, intellect and will, are so corrupt that I wasn't even supposed to enjoy Beethoven's Fifth.

sonship is one of the most joyless ideologues I have ever come across.

@fmf said
Yes, I said "Well done" to Ghost of a Duke. I think, on more than one level, he has exposed you and your cult's/sect's ideology in an interesting way. This has been a more-interesting-than-usual bit of forum activity involving you, so I say "Well done" to Ghost of a Duke. Did you not want me to?

Well done to Ghost of a Duke. The man is an intelligent, patient, well-spoken, clear thinking, logical person. He moved like a panther stalking its unsuspecting prey. Sonship had no chance in hell to escape. Ghost Im impressed.

What you have also done which is a greater value than demoting sonship to a brainless sycophant of Watchman / Witness, is to warn people of the dangerous and sneaky nature of these cult leaders and members.

I hope these two threads stay active for a while.

@FMF

sonship is one of the most joyless ideologues I have ever come across.

Well it is one of the threads filled with the most misinformation I have seen regarding Watchman Nee. That's for sure.

And stop blaming your depression on me.

The reason why I stopped reading "The Spiritual Man" back in the 80s, was that what he calls my "soul", that is emotions, intellect and will, are so corrupt that I wasn't even supposed to enjoy Beethoven's Fifth.

As a composer myself, this complaint of yours was of interest to me. I think you over sensitive conscience was taking in premature knowledge.

Here Brother Nee discussed healthy hobbies including playing the piano. So what you say sounds a bit askew to me Caljust.

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 50: Messages for Building Up New Believers (3)
by Watchman Nee [My bolding]

B. Four Kinds of Recreation ...

3.
Hobbies
At the same time, the Christian life has room for some proper hobbies. Some brothers like to take photographs. Others like to keep birds, plant flowers, or paint. These are legitimate hobbies within the bounds of the Christian life. Some like music; they may write some songs and play them on the piano. Some like calligraphy. All of these are proper forms of recreation.

I practice piano and play classics with no offense in my Christian conscience.

Nee continues:

But no matter what kind of recreation it is, whether it be rest, a change in work, or a hobby, it has to be something that a person can pick up and drop at will. If a person cannot drop an activity, something is wrong with it. It is all right for a person to take photographs, study them, and learn a little about them. However, we are against anything that controls a person's life. The recreation must be easy to pick up and easy to drop. It is all right for a young brother to play the violin. But if he cannot put it down, he has a problem. The trouble with many young believers is that they cannot put their recreation down. When they find that they are bound by these things, they have to deal with them. They have to sever them, or else they will not be able to go on properly as Christians; they will be enslaved. Recreation must be something that one can pick up freely and drop freely. He must not be enslaved by it. This is an underlying principle. We must remember that in order for something to be proper recreation, whether it be a hobby, a change in work, or rest, a person must not be bound by it.

There was a brother in one of the churches in Taiwan (?) who was a symphony orchestra conductor. (Need to check the locality). Saints with all kinds of professions and interests have benefitted spiritually from Nee's ministry.

Are you sure about your "Thou Shalt Not Like Beethoven's Music" beef ?

I am merely saying this to show you that recreation does not affect one's spirituality. On the contrary, one touches the human element of a person through his hobbies. Please remember that God's servants are not staid people; that is Catholicism, not Christianity. Christians are plain, simple, and natural people.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=24EBD71817

@fmf said
There seem to be a lot of Christians who think their religion is about what they believe about themselves [and about God] rather than how they should live their lives.

sonship [i.e. the Witness Lee ideology he regurgitates here] has always been 99% about believing/ thinking/ theorizing/ ideological purity and 1% about doing/ living/ walking the walk.

That seems to be the whole point of Christianity and the rest, don't think about it, God will fix all your boo boo's. Trust me says Paul and his buddies.

@sonship said

The reason why I stopped reading "The Spiritual Man" back in the 80s, was that what he calls my "soul", that is emotions, intellect and will, are so corrupt that I wasn't even supposed to enjoy Beethoven's Fifth.

As a composer myself, this complaint of yours was of interest to me. I think you over sensitive conscience was taking in premature knowledge.
...[text shortened]... and natural people. [/quote]

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=24EBD71817

Just as an aside, I am now up to 82 tracks on SC. the whole first page is my compositions. One people seem to like is my valentine to Susan, my wife. Guitar solo.

@sonhouse

Just as an aside, I am now up to 82 tracks on SC. the whole first page is my compositions. One people seem to like is my valentine to Susan, my wife. Guitar solo.

Congradulations. What is SC ?

The reason why I stopped reading "The Spiritual Man" back in the 80s, was that what he calls my "soul", that is emotions, intellect and will, are so corrupt that I wasn't even supposed to enjoy Beethoven's Fifth.

Under another title Do All to the Glory of God Watchman Nee taught about proper games and hobbies and recreation for Christians.

Under LSM those messages are in

Collected Works of Watchman Nee, The (Set 3) Vol. 50: Messages for Building Up New Believers (3)
by Watchman Nee

Violin lessons, piano lessons were among the recreational hobbies he discussed that were good for Christian young people.

I recall that he said games which involve chance and gambling should be discouraged. But games of skill should instead be encouraged.

There are many games, such as chess, ball games, and horse-riding, which can be considered proper activities, even though they contain the element of winning and losing. The element of winning and losing is related to skill. It is all right for children to engage in table-tennis, basketball, volleyball, riding, or chess. All these are proper activities and do not involve any sin. Parents should be generous toward these matters and should guide their children to the proper recreation.

All recreation, Nee said, a Christian should be able to pick up and put down without feeling he is enslaved to it.

For example:

We have mentioned four kinds of recreation: rest, a change in work, hobbies, and games. A Christian can engage in these four kinds of recreation, but he should not be under the power of any of them. It is wrong to be bound by any of them. The younger a believer is in the Lord, the more he has to be careful not to be bound. This matter may not be a problem to us today. It may not make any difference to us whether or not we play the piano, but it makes a great difference to a new believer.

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=24EBD7181B

BEWARE OF THE WRITINGS OF WATCHMAN NEE ??

No, just keep in mind that all levels of spiritual maturity he speaks to. Some writings may be better for one at a future time.

@sonship said
@FMF

sonship is one of the most joyless ideologues I have ever come across.

Well it is one of the threads filled with the most misinformation I have seen regarding Watchman Nee. That's for sure.

And stop blaming your depression on me.

No, no, I mean you are joyless all the time on all threads and it has been getting worse and worse these last 2-3 years. Not just this thread. This state of affairs is not caused by any "depression" in me.

@sonship said

Here Brother Nee discussed healthy hobbies including playing the piano. So what you say sounds a bit askew to me Caljust.

Hobbies [/b]
At the same time, the Christian life has room for some proper hobbies. Some brothers like to take photographs. Others like to keep birds, plant flowers, or paint. These are legitimate hobbies within the bounds of the Christian ...[text shortened]... and natural people. [/quote]

https://www.ministrybooks.org/SearchMinBooksDsp.cfm?id=24EBD71817

This post of yours actually demonstrates my point beautifully. Thanks!

I got tired just reading it....

WL (as shown in this passage) majors on legislating the tiniest minutiae of your life. "This hobby is OK, that one isn't".

If one follows this teaching, you will spend your entire life on introspection. "How am I doing? Is this acceptable to the Lord? Oh no, I should rather stop doing this and do more of such and such.".

Like fmf says, it drains the joy out of your spirit.

Not only that, it focuses on I, Me and Mine. Which inevitably leads to pride and superiority (if one succeeds) and depression and guilt if one doesn't.

What about Psalm 32,8? Live your life with joy and abandon, and trust him to adjust your path when you go astray.

I guess I will now get three pages of WL quotes to show me that he is actually quite a nice guy....

@CalJust

This post of yours actually demonstrates my point beautifully. Thanks!

It demonstrates to me that you jumped to the conclusions which were unwarranted based on some limited reading.

So it doesn't bother me in the least.

I got tired just reading it....

And whose fault is that?
You got tired of just reading something.
Which proves ___________________ ?

WL (as shown in this passage) majors on legislating the tiniest minutiae of your life. "This hobby is OK, that one isn't".

Wrong initials.
The paragraphs were from WN not WL.
That's a bit sloppy for someone tired of reading.

Secondly, this is not about people kidnapped against their will. The cage door is fully opened.

This is about rendering help those who are seeking help.

Some realize the need to let Christ make His home in their hearts by faith. Why should not a servant of God seek to help such people extensively?

Did you ever read that Paul sought to bring his audience to have every thought captured to the obedience of Christ?

"For the weapons of our warfare are not fleshly, but powerful to God to the overthrow of strongholds, overthrowing reasoning and every high thing rising up against the knowledge of God, and taking every thought captive unto the obedience of Christ." (2 Cor. 10:4,5)

Paul was helping the willing audience hungry to live Christ to bring their every thought even to the obedience of the Wonderful liberating Jesus Christ.

You're not caged. If you don't want such help, or you choose to be helped from another guide, you have complete freedom to do that.

Why should we who continue to receive good life ministry from Watchman Nee be discouraged because you got tired of reading? We learn to balance our reading with prayer, fellowship, and practice.

"That you may not be sluggish, but imitators of those who through faith and PATIENCE are inheriting the promises." (Hebrews 6:12)

If one follows this teaching, you will spend your entire life on introspection. "How am I doing? Is this acceptable to the Lord? Oh no, I should rather stop doing this and do more of such and such.".

That is not healthy to be overly introspective.
Which is why God went on to raise up Witness Lee to help us to learn to touch our human spirit - pray reading the word, calling on the Lord, and each holding to the Head Christ.

This the Lord went on to recover. Lee helped Christians to enter into many healthy teachings by teaching them to hold fast directly to the living Head , Christ in their spirit.

In this way the two men's ministries greatly complemented each other. It is the Lord's move of recovery and not man's.

Like fmf says, it drains the joy out of your spirit.

Then you follow the help you get from FMF. No one is stopping you to get help from wherever you think you receive it.

He has a thousand post out there criticizing, questioning, doubting, denying, dismissing the Christian gospel and experience. If you get more help living unto God from FMF then go get spiritual guidance from him.

I get more out of any paragraph of WN or WL frankly.

Not only that, it focuses on I, Me and Mine. Which inevitably leads to pride and superiority (if one succeeds) and depression and guilt if one doesn't.

The missionaries opposed Watchman Nee steadily. When he died as religious people often do, they whitewash the tombs of the prophets. They speak highly of them though while they lived they fought with them.

Certain Christians who was eager to promote Watchman Nee's messages after he died mostly promoted books on individual spirituality. They did not present the balance of Nee's ministry which included fellowship, love, mutuality in the church life.

So as a result many people get a lopsided opinion that Watchman Nee's messages were all about introspection.

In the one sided exploitation of Nee's ministry to under appreciate his messages on the church and over stress his messages on individual spirituality, we see that this damaged some people's growth.

We do not blame Watchman Nee that missionaries who did not like his ministry on the Body, fellowship, and the corporate church life thought to exalt instead his ministry on individual spirituality.

So some find too many chapters of books on individual spirituality to be overly introspective. I empathize with them to an extent. But Watchman Nee himself was very balanced.

What about Psalm 32,8? Live your life with joy and abandon, and trust him to adjust your path when you go astray.

I guess I will now get three pages of WL quotes to show me that he is actually quite a nice guy....

I had a better verse then Psalm 32:8. I use to like Ecclesiastes 9:7

" Rejoice, young man, in your childhood and let your heart be merry in the days of your youth, and walk in the ways of your heart and in the sight of your eyes." (Ecc. 11:9a)

That was my favorite Christian "Do Your Own Thing" verse. Then eventually I thought the rest of the passage was also important.

But know that for all these things God will bring you to judgment.

Anyway, WN and WL have both gone now. If the Lord's move to recover the church life and small group meetings and home meetings for building up the Body of Christ goes on, you'll just have to find someone else to blame now.

I guess I will now get three pages of WL quotes to show me that he is actually quite a nice guy....

You might instead get pages of posts by your atheist helper FMF. The mention of his name usually causes a barrage of questions to me.