a reprobate mind

Originally posted by dj2becker
I reject the premise that Jesus is an agent when someone is trying to save themselves.

If someone believed that Jesus wanted him to obey his commandments in order to be "saved", and so spent a lifetime doing good works based on this premise, do you imagine they would end up in "Hell"?

Originally posted by dj2becker
You just don't get it. I have no issue with Jesus saving anyone my issue is with people trying to save themselves.

People are not allowed to want to actively do what they believe it takes to be "saved" by Jesus?

Originally posted by dj2becker
So you have never entertained the thought that a God may exist?

No more than I've entertained the thought that elephants might fly.

Originally posted by FMF
In the matter we are discussing, Rajk999's analysis ~ who else is it - aside from Jesus - that might be perceived as making someone "saved"? Has Rajk999 suggested that it is some other supernatural being aside from Jesus?

Well Rajk has indicated that atheists can save themselves without having faith in Jesus. So that seems to indicate that they can save themselves and don't need him at all.

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well Rajk has indicated that atheists can save themselves without having faith in Jesus. So that seems to indicate that they can save themselves and don't need him at all.

And who would it be in this scenario who would "save" these people if not Jesus?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well Rajk has indicated that atheists can save themselves without having faith in Jesus. So that seems to indicate that they can save themselves and don't need him at all.

Your error is to make the differentiation between theist and atheist when all that really matters (from a biblical perspective) is to live a righteous life, according to the law of God. (Which luckily enough for atheists is written on their hearts).

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well Rajk has indicated that atheists can save themselves without having faith in Jesus. So that seems to indicate that they can save themselves and don't need him at all.

Does this mean you have changed your stance since page 10 where, when asked if you think atheists are concerned about being "saved" by a supernatural being, you replied that you were sure that in the back of their minds they must have a back up plan for if God exists. Is this not you interpreting what "Rajk999 has indicated" as being about a "back up plan" for if Jesus exists ~ in other words, the possibility that Jesus will "save" them?

Originally posted by FMF
And who would it be in this scenario who would "save" these people if not Jesus?

They would be saving themselves with their own good works.

Originally posted by Ghost of a Duke
Your error is to make the differentiation between theist and atheist when all that really matters (from a biblical perspective) is to live a righteous life, according to the law of God. (Which luckily enough for atheists is written on their hearts).

Of course if you ignore all everything that is said about faith.

Originally posted by dj2becker
They would be saving themselves with their own good works.

Huh? Both you and Rajk999 believe, surely, that is is Jesus who "saves" people, right?

Originally posted by FMF
Huh? Both you and Rajk999 believe, surely, that is is Jesus who "saves" people, right?

How does Jesus save someone if they are the ones doing the good works and they are saved on the merits of their own works?

Originally posted by dj2becker
How does Jesus save someone if they are the ones doing the good works?

Christians presumably believe that Jesus/God can do whatever He wants.

Originally posted by FMF
Christians presumably believe that Jesus/God can do whatever He wants.

I could imagine people like yourself and Ghost, waltzing into the Kingdom of God and Christians on the sidelines protesting to Christ ... 😀

Originally posted by FMF
Christians presumably believe that Jesus/God can do whatever He wants.

Well He generally does what He reveals in His word, anything else is speculation.

Originally posted by dj2becker
How does Jesus save someone if they are the ones doing the good works and they are saved on the merits of their own works?

The merits of people's attempts to live their lives in accordance with Jesus' commandments are presumably what "judgement" is about.