PAWN RIOT VS The Forum Move 30

Hm, well this is just me thinking things through so don't take it s as gospel

I will look through a few more lines later when caffiene kicks in 😉

The reason Rd4 is forced in my line is he is in check, so has to block the check or move King.

His rook is threatened by our e4 knight so, Bd4 blocking the check and simply we take his rook.

The best alternative to Rd4 might be Kc1 Nxd2 or Kb1 Nxd2 but either way, we are level on material, with a bishop pair, and initiative. I would say anything other than Rd4 in that position would be losing.

Though there are so many variants that i am quite possibly talking out of my a***

And Bd4?
something like 30. ... Ra4 31. Kb2 Ne4+ 32. Bd4 N2xd 33. Bxg7 Nxb3 34. Rxd7 Kxg7 35. axb3
and then it seems very drawish...
But maybe I am doing mistakes here, because I have no board with me, except the Fen on the previous page...

But I definitely agree: Ra4 is not so convincing. the question we may ask is: if we do Ra4 Kb2 Ne4 (the best line after Ra4 I tend to believe now), what is the point of "Ra4 Kb2" before Ne4. what does it change? as I only considered the Ra4 line, I don't know anything about the Ne4 line, and it is hard for me to conclude from this...

Originally posted by Macpo
And Bd4?
something like 30. ... Ra4 31. Kb2 Ne4+ 32. Bd4 N2xd 33. Bxg7 Nxb3 34. Rxd7 Kxg7 35. axb3
and then it seems very drawish...
But maybe I am doing mistakes here, because I have no board with me, except the Fen on the previous page...

But I definitely agree: Ra4 is not so convincing. the question we may ask is: if we do Ra4 Kb2 Ne4 (the best li ...[text shortened]... er Ra4 I tend to believe now), what is the point of "Ra4 Kb2" before Ne4. what does it change?

You are missing something! 33. Nxb3 is not an option in your line look at our poor king!

Nxb3 Be5 (not Bc3 as Nd4) threatening mate. Now we have bishop and knight attacked and for nothing.

f6 gxf6 and no way out, we go down a peice. Nice try though! 😉

Instead 33. Kxg7 Nxd2 (Rxd7?? Nxf3 and we ravage his g and h pawns) and actually, maybe we could draw this

My endgame is not up to scratch. I would say, as i have been saying for a while, in this sort of endgame i would fancy our weak a and e pawns being picked off. so is it losing, drawing, winning for us? I don't know

I'd say, losing

30...Ne4+ 31.Rd4 Nxf2 32.R8xd7 Bxd4+ 33.Nxd4 looks pretty equal to me.

30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+ 32.Rd4 (31.Bd4?? Nxd2 32.Bxg7 Kxg7 33.Nxd2 Be6! looks better for black) Nxf2 33.R8xd7 Nd1+ 34.Kc1 Bxd4 35.Nxd4 Ne3 looks pretty equal as well.

Well, if there is no difference, then maybe we can play Ra4, so that we make our opponent work a bit 🙂

Here are my two posts from the last thread:

Originally posted by !~TONY~!

The two moves I'd endorse would be:

29...Rb4 30. Nb3 Ne4+ and now:

31. Bd4? looks like it leads to a better rook ending for Black after 31...Nxb2 32. Bxg7 Nxb3+ 33. axb3 Kxg7 34. Rxd7 a5, when h4 hangs and the h-pawn gets rolling. Maybe White's losing here.

31. Rd4! Nxf2 32. R8xd7 Bxd4+ 33. Nxd4 Nd1!? intending either ...Ne3-g2xh4, or ...Nc3 looks roughly equal.

or

29...Rb4 30. Nb3 Ra4!? as suggested already, looks okay also. 31. Nc1? Ne4+ is losing for White (since d4 isn't protected enough to throw a piece in the way, and d2 is hanging simultaneously), but 31. Kb2 Ne4+ leads to a very similar position as the above variations, but with White's king on b2. Maybe that's a reason to prefer slightly 30...Ne4+. I'd be hesistant to take on a2 with the rook instead. I'd just want to get all my material back and reach the drawn ending.

I vote for 29...Rb4.

Here Streetfighter mentioned we should analyze the endgame or something like this to make sure it was okay. I believe it still is!

Originally posted by !~TONY~!

Hmmm, yes, I guess we have to analyze this a little bit further. After:

34. Nc6 Rb6 35. Rxd1 Rxc6 36. Rd7 Rc4 37. Rxa7 Rxh4 38. Rxe7 Kg7

we've reached an ending where Black is a pawn down, but he's got play based on the fact that his h-pawn is definitely faster than White's a/c pawn. His king on g7 is slightly better than his counterpart on h1, and the f3-pawn is going to hang soon as well. Maybe now White continues with 39. Kb2, as he needs to put his king on b3 or b4 to get the a -pawn rolling, and now 39...Rf4 makes a lot of sense. After something like 40. Kb3 Rxf3+ 41. Kb4 h4, we have a fantastically tense and difficult ending. All the above moves were quite easy to find, and were obvious. The rest is too tough for my feeble mind. 🙂 Suffice to say that both sides are gonna start running their pawns.

At the very least it's gonna be interesting! 😀

Originally posted by !~TONY~!
Here are my two posts from the last thread:

Originally posted by !~TONY~!

The two moves I'd endorse would be:

[b]29...Rb4 30. Nb3 Ne4+ and now:

31. Bd4? looks like it leads to a better rook ending for Black after 31...Nxb2 32. Bxg7 Nxb3+ 33. axb3 Kxg7 34. Rxd7 a5, when h4 hangs and the h-pawn gets rolling. Maybe White's ...[text shortened]... gonna start running their pawns.

At the very least it's gonna be interesting! 😀[/b]

Hmmm, the problem I see is that in this last line white can play 36.Kb2 immediately instead of going after the pawns on e7 and a7.

He just runs the c-pawn and I'm not sure how we counter this!? We might have to give up our rook for it, but in that case we have to have our k-side pawns moving.

At the moment I haven't found anything convincing for us, which surprises me given how the position looks. I'll keep looking though : )

Strangely enough, I think that playing 30...Ra4 dragging the white king out to b2 may actually HELP us in the ...Ne4+ variations!

I'll try to post a few variations later, but the main idea is to gain a tempo over TONY's variations because ...Nd1 comes with check , and the white king retreating to c1 makes it harder for him to get the c-pawn rolling.

If someone with more time and who is more adept at posting variations wants to help with this idea feel free! It may be our best chance, or I may have overlooked something obvious.

How about a quiet move, either Be6 or Bf5? This brings the bishop out of danger and into the attack. Our other pieces are well-placed. White's king can only go to b2 which means we can still move our knight for the discovered check. But now we have one more piece (all of our pieces in fact) bearing down on the white king in a coordinated attack.

A
30...Ne4+


31.Rd4 Nxf2 32.R8xd7


32...Bxd4+ 33.Nxd4


(33...Rc4, 33...a5/a6,33...Kg8/g7,33...Nd1! all look fine)

B
30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+


32.Rd4 Nxf2 33.R8xd7


Any benefit to moving the king to b2?

33...Nd1+! 34.Kc1 Bxd4 35.Nxd4 (35.Rxd4 Rxd4, 35.Kxd1 Bf2!) Ne3

Better or worse than A?

OK, so my last post was in response to streetfighter's idea:

Here are the two positions again:

A. 30...Ne4+ 31.Rd4 Nxf2 32.R8xd7 Bxd4+ 33.Nxd4


And maybe a supposed improvement:

B. 30...Ra4 31.Kb2 Ne4+ 32.Rd4 Nxf2 33.R8xd7 Nd1+ 34.Kc1 Bxd4 35.Nxd4 Ne3


The idea is to slow down white's c-pawn by misplacing white's king for those that aren't following the posts.

After B 36.c3 Rxa2 became pretty hairy, but then I got this idea 36.c3 Nf5 37.Nxf5 gxf5 38.Rxe7 Kg6 and we can roll with both our outside pawns:


After A 33...Rc4 34.Kb2 e5 35.Ne6 Kg8 36.Nd8 Rb4+(this check will slow down the c-pawn) 37.Kc1 Rxh4 38.Nxf7


This is an unforced fantasy, but we have e4 and Rh1+ planned.


Which one is better for us though? I can't say. (Sorta prefer B)

I will study it tonight, but at first sight, the Ra4 variation seems a bit more convincing: in addition to limiting c! move, a2 is threatened by our rook, and our knight is more flexible than in the Ne4 variation, where its moves are a bit limited.
Thanks for that work anyway, Resigning!

I think the "after B" Resigning soon line is very interesting (be careful the after A line and after B line, it is not the same player to play):
I wrote almost one page about it, but unfortunately it disappeared.
So I just post the lines with few comments:

the After B line (main decisions 30.... Ra4 and 36. ... Nf5, something like that) comes to that position:



I just developed a bit this position:

- most natural line (let's say the blitz line) would be: 38. Kb2 (covering the a pawn, coming closer to the c pawn) Rxh4 39. Rxa7 Kxg5 40. Rxf7. and we are in a not so good situation I would say...



I propose to improve this a bit, with 38. ... a5. This is supposed to take benefit from the fact that his rook needs a extra move to be active (the interesting e6 and e4 are not free squares). After all Rxa7 is possible only because of the previous black Rxh4. so we can delay h4, so that he wastes time. I can see few possibilities
for him:

- the most likely:
-39. Kb3 (attack rook and prepare c4). then Rxh4. 40. c4


but now, since he is on b3, the King do no cover c1. and our Rh4 can come.
so it might be something like this. (my impression is our situation is not obvious...)
40. … Kg5 (necessary, before moving the Rook to h1, because of f4 threat) 41. c5 Rh1. 42. c6 Rc1


EDIT: and he probably would play c7... situation is di-re. Though his king will take some time to get to b7.

obviously, White can also take f7 with objective of furth Rh7, and even the long term possibility of perpetual checks... (Rg7+ and Rh7+)

-the other possibility I can see is Ra7 threatening a5 (Rc7 may prepare c4 but is pretty annoying to promote c pawn&hellip😉

But then we came only to a better position (as compared to the main natural line).
With something like this:

39. Ra7 Rxh4 (forced and good: if not Rxh4 then Ra6+! And then Rh6, bad for us!!) 40. Rxa5 Kxg5 and the only difference with the main after B line is he cannot take the f7 pawn… This might be interesting also because his rook cannot easily go on the h file now. but still, 39. Kb3 is more likely. (here we can come back on Rc4, and we are ok I think.)



damn FENs kill me! I have to do it all in my head, then when I have a look at the position, problems looks obviously different...
I will go on later…

I had a glance the situation RS proposes as " A line". Without much analysis, I think the Resigning soon A line is worse than the B line I also explored. (and he seems to agree. 1. We do not have offensive moves,

2. except e5, (as RS suggests) which is a semi-suicidal move. Finding it was pretty intelligent, after e5 white rook cannot take f6 because of Kg8, and either the white knight, either the white rook are down; and the previous intermediary Nc6 is no more possible because of Rc4!).So on the short term, it holds. but then, after this, our situation si not so comfortable...
So maybe, I did not analyzed in depth. but at first sight, I would fly away from this...

More generally, the A line can be considered slightly worse than B line on positional bases: as I said: our Knight stinks, we do not threat anything with our rook, e and f pawns are weak, etc. whereas in the B line, (30. Ra4 we have a chance).

Be it Ra4 or Ne4, this situation is difficult for us I would say, on the long term, because white has an easier plan (this does not mean a better plan).
Ra4 seems to lead to easier, more offensive paths for us though, thanks to Resigning soon Nf5 counter-intuitive, interesting move.

After further investigation: 36. … Ra6 is also a move to be considered… (in the B line) it might be less destructive than Nf5… white cannot take the e pawn (because of our knight: Rxe7 Nd5 Rd7 and Nxc3).

The main interest of this rather defensive move, is that it avoids the white Knight to come on the sixth rank, which is basically the main problem of the situation for us (Knight e6+ with the f7 pawn pinned, which gives white many opportunities, to get out of forks, to attack our poor king, and so on). it gives us time. Then, maybe we could use our good knight (see how the f3, h4, g5 pawns are made for Knight moves  In some cases, it enables us to push e5.

After 36. c3 Ra6 possible moves are:


- 37. Rxe7 Nd5 38. Rd7 Nxc3. 39. Kb2 and we have to be careful of not having our Knight trapped, but as long as we have the rook on the sixth rank, nothing serious can happen to us. We have potentially one pawn more, we got rid of his c pawn. Situation is better than expected!

- 37. Nb3 targeting the a7 pawn. This, I believe, would be a pretty bad move, because the Knight value seriously decreases. But it is not so obvious though.

we can play 37. … Rxa2 38. Rxa7 (Nxa7 is bad, because of Rc2 + Kb1 Rxc3) Rc2+ 39. Kb1 (his King goes back: good) Rh2. the problem he now can take e7 because of his knight protecting c3. so it might go on like this. 40. Rxe7 Nf5
- 41. Rd7 Rxh4.
- 41. Re4 Nxh4. (exchanging rooks is probably a bad idea…
But with this, his c pawn seems really strong.

So I would do something like : 37. … Rxa2 38. Rxa7 Rxa7 39. Nxa7 f6 and I think we have good chances because we can cover his c pawn with a Knight sacrifice on the c pawn, whereas he will not be able to come with his knight on the h pawn. And if he prefer to defend with f4, we just do fxg5 fxg5 and our king can come against the c pawn. For a good draw (a draw is good objective for us, now, I believe&hellip😉

- 37. Kd2. this would give us the time to use our good Knight, and we will take a2 a tempo with the rook. So it is not a very convincing move 37. … Ng2 38. Rxe7 (by now possible) 38. … Nxh4. 39. Re4 Rxa2 40. Kd3 Nf5 41. Nxf5 gxf5 etc.
- 37. Kb2 is pretty much the same story: 37. … Ng2 38. Rxe7 (by now possible) 38. … Nxh4.
- Rc7 is the same story: Ng2, etc. and I feel it’s good for us.

So I may be missing something, but after 37. c3 37. …. Ra6 seems a convincing move.


Anyway, this Ra6 possibility confirms my interest for 30. … Ra4.

And sorry, I gave up Fens, but it psychologically prevented me from using boards...