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25 May 19
@galveston75 saidSays the man who has just ignored my post and instead made an assertion that “the whole bible says he’s (Jesus) is not (God).
You're not paying attention.
- Joined
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25 May 19
@galveston75 saidAnd every time there has been more than one poster here who has categorically demonstrated that you are in error, as indeed I have just done.
I've posted these scriptures myself many times and have by the bible explained them.
25 May 19
@galveston75 saidThis passage is King Solomon who speaks about wisdom.
Prov 8: 22,23
22 “The Lord created me first of all,
the first of his works, long ago.
23 I was made in the very beginning,
at the first, before the world began.
24 I was born before the oceans,
when there were no springs of water.
25 I was born before the mountains,
before the hills were set in place,
26 before God made the earth and its fields
or even the first ...[text shortened]... les I looked this up on. Feel free to look at all the versions you'd like. They all say the same....
Wisdom is personified. This is not about Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not even speaking here about himself.
@divegeester saidThe first passage proves nothing about Jesus being God himself. Someone acting on behalf on another person, or representing another can make that claim that if you see me you see the boss. Its simple.
“Philip said to Him, “Lord, show us the Father, and that will be enough for us.” Jesus replied, “Philip, I have been with you all this time, and still you do not know Me? Anyone who has seen Me has seen the Father.”
Jn 14:8-9
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty."
Rev 1:8
But then i ...[text shortened]... nning and the End.”
Jesus claims to be the Lord God, the Father in the gospels and in Revelation.
The second is even worse. God, Jesus's father had no beginning and has no end.
That disproves the third as well, First and Last is not a description of God.
However clearer statements from the mouth of Christ that The Father is greater, and from Paul that God is the head of Christ disproves all that nonsense about God and Christ being one and the same.
25 May 19
Where is the "holy spirit" in all of this? Why didn't he or it offer to come to earth to do what Jesus did? Is it not qualified enough to give it's life as Jesus did for mankind?
The trinity says all 3 of this godhead "are all equal, all powerful, all knowing" or whatever it says. There is not even one recorded conversation of the holy spirit speaking up and saying anything about "I'll do this. I got it".
Maybe it was mad as we still have never heard what it's name is. I'd be mad too if I'd never been given a name.....
1st godhead being is Jehovah. 2nd godhead being is Jesus. 3rd godhead being is _________ ?
25 May 19
@galveston75 saidFor there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. (1 John 5:7 KJV)
Where is the "holy spirit" in all of this? Why didn't he or it offer to come to earth to do what Jesus did? Is it not qualified enough to give it's life as Jesus did for mankind?
The trinity says all 3 of this godhead "are all equal, all powerful, all knowing" or whatever it says. There is not even one recorded conversation of the holy spirit speaking up and saying any ...[text shortened]... .....
1st godhead being is Jehovah. 2nd godhead being is Jesus. 3rd godhead being is _________ ?
26 May 19
@rajk999 saidSorry to disagree on a couple points. Yes this is not Jesus actually speaking, it is Solomon speaking and yes the point of wisdom is being spoken of in some of the surrounding verses just as you say.
This passage is King Solomon who speaks about wisdom.
Wisdom is personified. This is not about Jesus Christ.
Jesus Christ is not even speaking here about himself.
But one has to remember this is Jehovah's words to the one writing this book of the bible. These are all his words and this is his description of his sons history from the beginning.
22 Jehovah produced me as the beginning of his way,
The earliest of his achievements of long ago.
Did Jehovah produce wisdom as another life form? No. Jehovah has always existed which means he has always been wise. He did not create wisdom or himself grow in wisdom as time passed. He does not learn new things as he has created all things. He is complete in all things. Only this can apply to Jesus.
23 From ancient times I was installed,
From the start, from times earlier than the earth.
Again wisdom has always existed with God. Jesus has not.
24 When there were no deep waters, I was brought forth,
When there were no springs overflowing with water.
25 Before the mountains were set in place,
Before the hills, I was brought forth,
26 When he had not yet made the earth and its fields
Or the first clods of earth’s soil.
27 When he prepared the heavens, I was there;
When he marked out the horizon on the surface of the waters,
28 When he established the clouds above,
When he founded the fountains of the deep,
29 When he set a decree for the sea
That its waters should not pass beyond his order,
When he established the foundations of the earth.
Again wisdom has always existed in Jehovah. Here it confirms that wisdom with Jehovah has always existed. Jesus has not.
30 Then I was beside him as a master worker.
I was the one he was especially fond of day by day;
I rejoiced before him all the time;
Jehovah would not become fond of his own wisdom. Wisdom does not work on it's own. But he would become fond of his son Jesus.
31 I rejoiced over his habitable earth,
And I was especially fond of the sons of men.
Wisdom cannot become fond of humans. Jesus was.
32 And now, my sons, listen to me;
Yes, happy are those who keep my ways.
33 Listen to discipline and become wise,
And never neglect it.
34 Happy is the man who listens to me
By coming early to my doors day by day,
By waiting next to my doorposts;
35 For the one finding me will find life,
And he receives approval from Jehovah.
36 But the one who ignores me harms himself,
And those who hate me love death.”
Wisdom cannot receive approval. Wisdom cannot cause ones death or get approval for life. Only Jesus thru his Father Jehovah can do these things.
@galveston75 saidYou are arguing like sonship, and that is not a compliment.
Sorry to disagree on a couple points. Yes this is not Jesus actually speaking, it is Solomon speaking and yes the point of wisdom is being spoken of in some of the surrounding verses just as you say.
But one has to remember this is Jehovah's words to the one writing this book of the bible. These are all his words and this is his description of his sons history from the ...[text shortened]... t cause ones death or get approval for life. Only Jesus thru his Father Jehovah can do these things.
Jesus said : God is greater than him.
Sonship will argue like a fool that Jesus is equal to God.
Here now Solomon is stating that it is wisdom personified. Wisdom is what that passage about. I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. (Proverbs 8:12 KJV)
The 'I' in that passage is wisdom, not Jesus Christ. So all your argument is nonsense
@rajk999 saidI agree the first 21 verses are speaking of wisdom and the obvious affects of gaining it.
You are arguing like sonship, and that is not a compliment.
Jesus said : God is greater than him.
Sonship will argue like a fool that Jesus is equal to God.
Here now Solomon is stating that it is wisdom personified. Wisdom is what that passage about. I wisdom dwell with prudence, and find out knowledge of witty inventions. (Proverbs 8:12 KJV)
The 'I' in that passage is wisdom, not Jesus Christ. So all your argument is nonsense
But verses 22-36 are now speaking of Jesus. Just the basic meaning of wisdom does not apply here as it is very descriptive of Jesus and his history with his Father from Jesus's beginning.
Proverbs says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. . . . Before the mountains themselves had been settled down, ahead of the hills, I was brought forth as with labor pains . . . When he prepared the heavens I was there; . . . then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, . . . and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men.”
This can't be speaking merely about general wisdom. The wisdom that is here described was “produced,” or created. As I said earlier Jehovah has always existed and has always been wise. (Psalm 90:1, 2) His wisdom had no beginning; it was neither created nor produced. It was not “brought forth as with labor pains.” This wisdom is said to speak and act, representing a person, Jesus. Proverbs 8:1.
The book of Proverbs says that long ago Jesus and his wisdom was beside Jehovah, the Creator, as “a master worker” which again would require much wisdom. That applies to Jesus. Before he came to earth, Jesus worked so closely with Jehovah that God’s Word says: “He is before all other things and by means of him all other things were made to exist.”—Colossians 1:17; Revelation 3:14.
Describing Jesus as wisdom is very appropriate, since he was the one who revealed Jehovah’s purposes and plans. During his prehuman existence, Jesus was God’s Word, or Spokesman. (John 1:1) 1 Corinthians describes Jesus as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30)
@galveston75 saidLearn how to differentiate between Bible truth and church teachings.
I agree the first 21 verses are speaking of wisdom and the obvious affects of gaining it.
But verses 22-36 are now speaking of Jesus. Just the basic meaning of wisdom does not apply here as it is very descriptive of Jesus and his history with his Father from Jesus's beginning.
Proverbs says: “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of hi ...[text shortened]... inthians describes Jesus as being “the power of God and the wisdom of God.” (1 Corinthians 1:24, 30)
@galveston75 saidTake all Watchtower pronouncements of what they think is Bible truth, line it up against what the Bible actually says in plain english and compare them critically. You will find that your church teachings is far from the Bible.
OK, whatever.
Some of these are minor and petty eg that youall think and you use the bible to prove that you are the 144,000 chosen and sealed ones. Petty and childish nonsense. Believe that if you wish.
Some are critical errors which will impact on whether or not you are accepted into the Kingdom of God.
Be careful.
27 May 19
@rajk999 saidWhy would you think I have not done that? I'm 62 and have never taken the JW's for granted, ever. I have had access to every bible probably written especially now with the online info that all can see. If anything my friend the more info that is put out there and the more so called truths that are posted by so called Bible experts do nothing but expose how far they are from knowing anything about the bible. Look at the trinity, what a joke. Most who go to these churches would have no idea how to teach anyone anything from the Bible which is a far cry from the way Jesus told his followers they would be which is very educated with the Bible. Most go because of the entertainment these churches offer or what band is going to be there that week.
Take all Watchtower pronouncements of what they think is Bible truth, line it up against what the Bible actually says in plain english and compare them critically. You will find that your church teachings is far from the Bible.
Some of these are minor and petty eg that youall think and you use the bible to prove that you are the 144,000 chosen and sealed ones. Petty and c ...[text shortened]... errors which will impact on whether or not you are accepted into the Kingdom of God.
Be careful.
So don't worry about me as I know exactly what I believe which is exactly what 8 million other JW's believe on this planet.
Again another proof that Jesus said would be the way to recognize his followers instead of a bunch of religions that cannot agree on even the basics in their own churches.
27 May 19
@galveston75 saidThere is no virtue in being a bible scholar, bible expert or in having access to all the translations of the bible. Neither will anyone be judged according to their understand of the trinity. How and why these churches operate is also irrelevant. There is wheat growing and living with the tares all over the world, which Jesus will separate when he comes.
Why would you think I have not done that? I'm 62 and have never taken the JW's for granted, ever. I have had access to every bible probably written especially now with the online info that all can see. If anything my friend the more info that is put out there and the more so called truths that are posted by so called Bible experts do nothing but expose how far they are fr ...[text shortened]... llowers instead of a bunch of religions that cannot agree on even the basics in their own churches.
God hates false prophets and liars. The fact that you still adhere to a failed religion, that has lied for over 100 yrs to their people, says a lot about your ability to be critical.
In the end all who live righteously and do good works will inherit the Kingdom of God. If you have read the teachings of Christ and all that sticks in your head is that you must go door to door, and that his disciples will all agree on doctrine, then you were not listening to Him.
27 May 19
@rajk999 saidSo you say...... Do as little as you can and live with that if that floats your boat.
There is no virtue in being a bible scholar, bible expert or in having access to all the translations of the bible. Neither will anyone be judged according to their understand of the trinity. How and why these churches operate is also irrelevant. There is wheat growing and living with the tares all over the world, which Jesus will separate when he comes.
God hates false ...[text shortened]... door to door, and that his disciples will all agree on doctrine, then you were not listening to Him.