What is the point of eternal suffering?

@fmf said
"Destruction"?

To contextualize, in 25:46 it says

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Strong's Greek entry for punishment is:

punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infliction.

https://www.biblehub.com/matthew/25-46.htm
(Bottom of the page)

2 Thessalonians 1:9 says destruction, and destruction can be defined as:

destruction,
ὄλεθρον (olethron)
Noun - Accusative Masculine Singular
Strong's Greek 3639: Ruin, doom, destruction, death. From a primary ollumi; ruin, i.e. Death, punishment.

[Bottom again]
https://www.biblehub.com/2_thessalonians/1-9.htm

Thus, the context would be everlasting ruin/doom; destruction in the sense of the continued form (hence it being everlasting and not a single, finalized act).

Perhaps our friend Rajk the Annihilationist will have to prove that annihilation is actually what is clearly stated in the Bible.

@philokalia said
To contextualize, in 25:46 it says

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Strong's Greek entry for punishment is:

[quote]punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infl ...[text shortened]... tionist will have to prove that annihilation is actually what is clearly stated in the Bible.

"It can be... it can be..."

"Death", "punishment", "destruction".

"Everlasting" can mean irreversible, right?

Dead, destroyed, punished, it's done, once and for all.

Don't worry, I am not going to suddenly believe in your or anyone else's version of the morally preposterous torturer god ideology.

What is interesting, however, is how dependent your ideology is on a very specific concoction of a few words that certainly do not have to be interpreted in the way you seem to be insisting they must be.

It can be "destruction in the sense of the continued form..."

One "it can be this" piled on an "it can be that" piled on another "it can be this"... to give you what? Something clearly communicated to you by a creator being and moral lawgiver? For real?

Which rather proves Rajk999's point: "If it was indeed true that there is such a thing as eternal torment it would have been made abundantly clear in the teachings of Christ and the Apostles. Just as eternal life is made abundantly clear."

@philokalia said
To contextualize, in 25:46 it says

"Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life."

Strong's Greek entry for punishment is:

[quote]punishment,
κόλασιν (kolasin)
Noun - Accusative Feminine Singular
Strong's Greek 2851: Chastisement, punishment, torment, perhaps with the idea of deprivation. From kolazo; penal infl ...[text shortened]... tionist will have to prove that annihilation is actually what is clearly stated in the Bible.

If something is destroyed and never salvaged and rebuilt, then it’s destruction is permanent.

It is curious to watch how you lovers of the torturer god will go to any lengths to protect the few words from which it is constructed. Why is that...?

@Sonship once infamously said:
“the knowledge of eternal suffering helped him forgive those who mistreated me (him)”

An astonishing revelation don’t you think, and one which opened my eyes to why the defenders of the doctrine do so vehemently.

@divegeester said
If something is destroyed and never salvaged and rebuilt, then it’s destruction is permanent.

It is curious to watch how you lovers of the torturer god will go to any lengths to protect the few words from which it is constructed. Why is that...?

@Sonship once infamously said:
[i]“the knowledge of eternal suffering helped him forgive those who mistreated me (him)”[ ...[text shortened]... don’t you think, and one which opened my eyes to why the defenders of the doctrine do so vehemently.

The word destruction, though, is clearly not being used in that sense in the Bible.

Revelation 20:10 states:

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

This is why hell is conceptualized as eternal, and why it is said in Matthew 25:46:

46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”

This is also why the teachings of Origen have been anathemetized:

If anyone says or thinks that the punishment of demons and of impious men is only temporary, and will one day have an end, and that a restoration (ἀποκατάστασι&sigmaf😉 will take place of demons and of impious men, let him be anathema.
Anathema to Origen and to that Adamantius, who set forth these opinions together with his nefarious and execrable and wicked doctrine320 and to whomsoever there is who thinks thus, or defends these opinions, or in any way hereafter at any time shall presume to protect them.

http://www.ccel.org/ccel/schaff/npnf214.xii.x.html

Fr. Laurence Farley provides some more analysis:

This is especially so since after human beings leave this world through death, they will share with the devil one thing: a direct vision of God. At one time, our tradition asserts, the devil was an unfallen angel, and like all angels enjoyed the direct vision of God. Hart might insist that to see the good truly is to desire it insatiably, but the devil once saw the good truly and he did not desire it insatiably. Instead, he rejected it absolutely, with the result that his will was transformed into what it now is—not a gnomic will like ours, capable of deliberation and choice, but one fixed in hopeless rebellion and futile spite. It seems that there is something in the combination of the direct vision of God and definitive choice that fixes the human will into its final choice. Those oriented towards the light see God after this life, and the choice for God fixes them into a place of joy, bringing healing and true eternal freedom, restoring their natural wills. Those oriented towards the darkness see God and their rejection of Him fixes them into a place of eternal ruin, as their humanity and capacity for joy and repentance utterly break apart. Their gnomic wills become transformed to a will like the devil, their souls decaying and collapsing into ash and phantom nonentity. That is why Christ condemns them into a place prepared for the devil and his angels (Matthew 25:41), because they have now become petrified ruins, devoid of hope, like the devil and his angels. It is not true that the will ultimately will choose the good because the will was created by God. The devil’s will was once also created by God, but the Scripture is clear that he will be “tormented day and night forever and ever”, as one who has forever rejected the good (Revelation 20:10).

https://blogs.ancientfaith.com/nootherfoundation/the-morality-of-gehenna/

Let us also point out that the men who came to these conclusions and this consensus were native Greek speakers who spoke the Greek of the Bible, and lived and breathed Christianity.

They were not modern people thousands of years apart from it cherry picking what they want from it.

@philokalia said
The word destruction, though, is clearly not being used in that sense in the Bible.

Revelation 20:10 states:

And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet are too, and they will be tormented there day and night forever and ever.

Yes I understand that you choose to take all this dream-state stuff in Revelation as being literal.

@divegeester said
Yes I understand that you choose to take all this dream-state stuff in Revelation as being literal.

So, do you have some argument that the Bible says no one will go to hell? Or that hell is temporary?

Do you want to support your unorthodox position that has been anathemitized and is regarded as a heresy by the Orthodox & Catholic churches, and most other churches?

@philokalia said
So, do you have some argument that the Bible says no one will go to hell? Or that hell is temporary?

Do you want to support your unorthodox position that has been anathemitized and is regarded as a heresy by the Orthodox & Catholic churches, and most other churches?

You’ve been a member here for over two years. Are you now going to pretend that you haven’t read the dozen or so threads I’ve started and hundreds and hundreds of posts I’ve made across countless other threads?

@divegeester said
You’ve been a member here for over two years. Are you now going to pretend that you haven’t read the dozen or so threads I’ve started and hundreds and hundreds of posts I’ve made across countless other threads?

Oh, so I am expected to restate the same arguments that I have made over the last two years... But you don't have to restate your arguments?

You get to ask people to repeat the same arguments over & over again for 27 pages, and when asked ONCE AND SIMPLY for justification for your own position, you pull the rug out?

LOL, what a joke! What a sham of a discussion! No sense of propriety or desire to engage, yet you have been here for a decade. It can't be clearer than this that you are just here to troll.

@philokalia said
Oh, so I am expected to restate the same arguments that I have made over the last two years... But you don't have to restate your arguments?

You get to ask people to repeat the same arguments over & over again for 27 pages, and when asked ONCE AND SIMPLY for justification for your own position, you pull the rug out?

If you would like to start a thread on the literalism of Revelation I would be happy to contribute.

This thread is specifically asking “what is the point of eternal suffering?” Which is a laser beam question that goes right to the heart of the whole construction of hell and eternal suffering as a dogma.

You have been unable so far to provide a coherent rational as to why God would torture billions of people in hell for eternity. In secret.

@philokalia said
LOL, what a joke! What a sham of a discussion! No sense of propriety or desire to engage, yet you have been here for a decade. It can't be clearer than this that you are just here to troll.

I have been engaging you all through this thread, calling you out for your lies about removing your post, pointing out your weak protestations and tangential countermeasure distractions.

Lol, you haven't done anything effective here and now skirt the question.

You failed to prove my position wrong, and now you won't even argue for your position on the topic.

Tail between your legs.

You'd rather talk about a conspiracy theory about some stupid post that allegedly shows I'm some horrible hypocrite (which I am) and I'm trying to conceal it.

Geez, LOUISE!

If I could roll my eyes at your response any harder my pupils would fall out.

@divegeester said
I was responding to your own comment where you said people should be “ terrified” of God; it is your word and perfectly apt in this thread.

I’m not interested in what God should do with people who do evil, I am interested in understanding if there is a point to torturing billions of people in secret after they die. There isn’t.

Well, Jesus told us that we should be and its a healthy thing to do for a couple of reasons the first knowing who He is and what He is like helps us keep life in a proper perspective on how we are to behave. Do we attack one another or show grace, do we rush to sin thinking no big deal or walk worthy of the Lord God?

You are not interest in what God should do with people who do evil, and complain about what God said He is going to do with evil people, you denial falls on its face.

@divegeester said
This is the nub of it, isn’t it.

It is NOT “what scripture teaches. Holding this attitude makes you appear cultish and a bit of a dullard KellyJay. I.e. “it’s in the bible so it’s true and it’s ok”.

The point of this thread is to highlight that the doctrine of eternal suffering is gross error. It is indefensible and those who believe in it are forced to retreat into “its in the bible so it must be true”.

I didn't pull this out of thin air and I have given scripture for the doctrine, you want to say its a metaphoric, basically suggesting the scripture does not clearly mean what it clearly says. The wrath of God is as terrifying as His Mercy is great, you pick and choose what parts of God and scripture you like, you are not getting the full picture instead you are making it up as you go, turning the truth into a lie of your own making. A very dangerous thing to do with the Word of God.

@kellyjay said
The wrath of God is as terrifying as His Mercy is great, you pick and choose what parts of God and scripture you like, you are not getting the full picture instead you are making it up as you go, turning the truth into a lie of your own making.

Why is your God figure so angry?

@philokalia said
... Except here:

I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one.

John 10:28-30

So much for being the one with the strong claim to being Biblically correct.

English must be your second language. Where in that passage it says or implies that the soul is immortal?