- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Aug 19
We can talk abopuit grace and mercy without Rajk999.
I have been influenced by a saying that mercy reaches lower than grace. I mean grace sees a certain amount of cooperation. But when you are really in a low state you need God's mercy to reach even lower.
What do you think about that SecondSon ?
24 Aug 19
@sonship saidI think that that has merit.
We can talk abopuit grace and mercy without Rajk999.
I have been influenced by a saying that mercy reaches lower than grace. I mean grace sees a certain amount of cooperation. But when you are really in a low state you need God's mercy to reach even lower.
What do you think about that SecondSon ?
I'll go ahead and answer the question, since Rajk is either unable or unqualified, or both, to answer.
In the simplest of terms relative to the biblical narrative, mercy is NOT getting what one deserves, and grace is getting what one DOES NOT deserve.
I can provide an illustration, but I'll wait and see what kind of flack I get first. 😉
@sonship saidOf course you can talk all you like about any topic, but without some independent unbiased person's input the discussion is a pointless regurgitation of your false church doctrine which is based on cherry picking the passages you like.
We can talk abopuit grace and mercy without Rajk999.
I have been influenced by a saying that mercy reaches lower than grace. I mean grace sees a certain amount of cooperation. But when you are really in a low state you need God's mercy to reach even lower.
What do you think about that SecondSon ?
You jokers are going to talk a whole lot about the grace of God and your free gift, your born-again status, you have Gods Spirit, your eternal life which God can take away, your assurance of eternal redemption. But what Jesus said about good works and righteousness runs contrary to your Satanic beliefs. Passages that speak of the requirement to live righteously otherwise there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God, are ridiculed and laughed at because you have eternal life already. You do not need to follow Christ.
The whole truth therefore is
- the born again Christian Saint that lives righteously and follows the commandments will inherit eternal life in the Kingdom of God
- the born-again Christian Saint that continues to sin after being saved by Christ through faith, will be destroyed, cast out of the Kingdom of God. He gets eternal destruction.
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
Of course you can talk all you like about any topic, but without some independent unbiased person's input the discussion is a pointless regurgitation of your false church doctrine which is based on cherry picking the passages you like.
You have not pointed out a falsehood in what I have explained in the Born Again ???. It appears that you gave up trying to convince the third party reading along.
Why shouldn't appropriate passages be selected to demonstrate the logic of Scripture ?
You jokers are going to talk a whole lot about the grace of God and your free gift, your born-again status, you have Gods Spirit, your eternal life which God can take away, your assurance of eternal redemption.
On the thread Eleven Reasons For Assurance you were not able to demonstrate that this assurance would be or could be taken away by God.
But what Jesus said about good works and righteousness runs contrary to your Satanic beliefs.
You may write "Satanic beliefs" all you wish.
But you have never been able to show the assurance of eternal salvation has its source in Satan.
And you have never ever been able in over a decade to demonstrate that I ENCOURAGED disobedience to the commands of Christ OR treated the need for the highest level of righteous living as not important to God's eternal purpose.
On the contrary. I have good reason to demonstrate YOUR teaching that no one has YET been born of the Spirit is probably a "doctrine of demons".
[edited for more brevity in one post]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Aug 19
3 edits
Passages that speak of the requirement to live righteously otherwise there is no inheritance in the Kingdom of God, are ridiculed and laughed at because you have eternal life already. You do not need to follow Christ.
The requirement of the REWARD of inheriting a position in the coming millennial kingdom has been elaborated by me. That is not a matter of the GIFT of eternal life or of eternal redemption.
And NEVER have you been able to deny that the apostle said that some will be rewarded and saved and some will suffer loss and be saved yet so as through fire.
"If anyone's work which he has built upon the foundation remains, he will receive a reward.
If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire." (1 Cor. 3:14,15)
Some saved PLUS rewarded.
Some saved BUT suffer loss. (Not rewarded but disciplined)
You can call that a "Satanic beliefs" if you want.
You will answer Christ directly before the judgment seat of Christ for that.
You have made some effort to prove that the destroyed person in verse 17 who has destroyed the temple of God is one who has lost his salvation. That is IF I understood you correctly.
I think you made the case. But the case is not strong enough for this Bible student. The context of verse 17 exactly pertains to trying to build the temple of God with INFERIOR materials. Thus that MARS and DEFILES the temple with an effect of almost destroying it.
[edited for post brevity]
- Joined
- 03 Jan 13
- Moves
- 13080
24 Aug 19
4 edits
The destroying of the living temple of God pertains to the INFERIOR building materials mentioned in 10-13.
"According to the grace of God given to me, as a wise master builder I have laid a foundation, and another BUILDS UPON IT. But let each man take heed how he BUILDS UPON IT.
For another foundation no one is abe to lay beside that which is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
But if anyone builds upon the foundation GOLD, SILVER, PRECIOUS STONES, wood, grass, stubble,
the work of each will become manifest for the day will declare it, because it is revealed by fire, and the fire itself will prove each one's work, of what sort it is." (vs. 10-13)
Gold survives the fire.
Silver survives the fire.
Precious stones survive the fire.
These are building materials approved by God for the building up of His church.
WOOD is burnt up
GRASS is burnt up
STUBBLE is burnt up.
These represent the old nature of man which destroys the church's holy nature, defiling and marring it. With THIS backround of SOME Christian saints building the church with the old fallen nature Paul says -
"If anyone's work is consumed, he will suffer loss, BUT HE HIMSELF WILL BE SAVED, yet so as through fire."
Therefore the logical consistency and connection is that the NEXT verse speaks of their suffering loss as their being destroyed.
"Do you not know that you are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwells in you. If anyone destroys the temple of God, God will destroy him, for the temple of God is holy, and such you are." (vs 16,17)
Some believers therefore will suffer the loss during the millennial kingdom time. Their old life will be destroyed in that discipline. But they are still saved. So they are still a part of the temple of the Lord - the church.
The case I think is unassailable. And I challenge ANYONE here to attempt to refute it. And if you wish to blame Witness Lee for this understanding, go right ahead, because I did learn it from him.
And you cannot defeat it IMO. You can ask one of the other Christians here on the Forum who doesn't agree with this to try to prove it is erroneous. I welcome their cross examination.
25 Aug 19
@sonship saidYou need to ask readers opinions. I dont.
You can ask one of the other Christians here on the Forum who doesn't agree with this to try to prove it is erroneous. I welcome their cross examination.
Jesus and the Apostles were crystal clear
Born-again Christians who defile themselves with sin will be destroyed.
They will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus and the Apostles speak with God's authority
You and Secondson speak with Satan's authority.
25 Aug 19
@rajk999 saidSpeaking of "authority", with what authority do you speak when you judge and condemn others?
You need to ask readers opinions. I dont.
Jesus and the Apostles were crystal clear
Born-again Christians who defile themselves with sin will be destroyed.
They will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus and the Apostles speak with God's authority
You and Secondson speak with Satan's authority.
You seem incapable of understanding the difference between salvation and sanctification.
Salvation is undeserved. It a free gift of God's grace. It cannot be earned, otherwise it's not grace.
Sanctification is a process that lasts a lifetime. Sanctification is a work that God performs in the believer. When one dies and is separated from the body they are then glorified and removed from sin forever and rewarded according to the works of faith performed in this lifetime.
Salvation ~ sanctification ~ glorification
It's Bible doctrine.
The question of whether or not a "born-again" Christian can lose their salvation is another debate altogether.
If you're in doubt about your salvation, then perhaps you should question whether or not you've actually been saved and are born again, especially if you think you can do anything to be saved other than trusting Christ who died for your sins.
But frankly, I don't believe you're a follower of Christ anyway. I think you're an imposter and a fraud masquerading as a believer for the purpose of destroying the faith of others.
@rajk999 saidAll sinners the whole of mankind will stand in front of Jesus on judgment day, and He will be either our Lord and Savior or Judge! He either took our sins upon Himself here because we asked Him to as we turned our lives over to Him, or we will stand before Him in our sins.
You need to ask readers opinions. I dont.
Jesus and the Apostles were crystal clear
Born-again Christians who defile themselves with sin will be destroyed.
They will not inherit the Kingdom of God.
Jesus and the Apostles speak with God's authority
You and Secondson speak with Satan's authority.
25 Aug 19
@secondson saidIf he can succeed in making followers of Christ realize that they must obey Christ's commandments ~ and that Christ requires His followers to walk the Christian walk ~ then that can only augment the faith of others, not "destroy" it.
But frankly, I don't believe you're a follower of Christ anyway. I think you're an imposter and a fraud masquerading as a believer for the purpose of destroying the faith of others.
25 Aug 19
@fmf saidThat is a good point. Their doctrine has the opposite effect of drawing people away from the commandments of Christ as was clearly shown in another thread.
If he can succeed in making followers of Christ realize that they must obey Christ's commandments ~ and that Christ requires His followers to walk the Christian walk ~ then that can only augment the faith of others, not "destroy" it.
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116950
25 Aug 19
@secondson saidThe irony is thick.
Speaking of "authority", with what authority do you speak when you judge and condemn others?
- Joined
- 16 Feb 08
- Moves
- 116950
25 Aug 19
@secondson saidYou haven’t asked a question, not in any post on the page I’m replying to anyway.
You always seem to say that just before you duck and hide from an honest reply to a point or question of a post.
Try again.
25 Aug 19
@rajk999 saidIt is Christ who matters, you can know the scriptures, but if you don't know Christ it doesn't matter. You must be born again, it is only in Christ can we abide in Him, He is either our redeemer or not. If He is not our redeemer, we are condemned already! Having a law or rule cannot change the heart of anyone, only God within, and without God's Spirit in you, you don't belong to God.
That is a good point. Their doctrine has the opposite effect of drawing people away from the commandments of Christ as was clearly shown in another thread.
Christ left this world to be glorified, so we who believe in Him could receive the Spirit, you deny this? The human heart is always at odds with God, with man it is all about being good enough, while with God it is taking God at His Word and obeying Him. We must humble ourselves before God admitting our faults and asking His forgiveness, we cannot make Him accept us by being good enough, it isn't about works in that regard it is obedience.
John 7 English Standard Version (ESV)
Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, ‘Out of his heart will flow rivers of living water.’” Now this he said about the Spirit, whom those who believed in him were to receive, for as yet the Spirit had not been given, because Jesus was not yet glorified.
Acts 15:8
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us,
Romans 2:29
But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God.