What is a Christian?

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"I don’t think the Presbyterian General Assembly have much of a clue what it is to be a Christian, but then again most of the other denominations don’t either; the older the denomination the further away from Christianity they seem to be."


How far back do you reckon the clock would have to be turned to return to an untainted version of Christianity? 12th c.? 9th c.? 2d c.?

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Just as an aside, what do you think of Anglicanism, you know, the CoE?

@fmf said
Mmm. Like, I said. I don't mind who calls themselves a Christian. If they arrive at the five core beliefs I laid out in the OP, then I will call them one too.

I am not worried about anyone's personal belief regarding "the virgin birth" and the "inerrancy of Scripture" doesn't worry me either. Nor am I worried about them believing in eternal torment.

I am most certainly not ...[text shortened]... hey should go ahead and do so and take comfort in what the theologians-that-they-agree-with believe.

This is all as may be, but yet you insist on defining a religion by claiming they believe in something which YOU claim is not true. That you don't "buy into" it, doesn't change what they believe, and yet you present what they believe as "not real", which is signaled by your "air quotes". Sorry, but it IS real to them. They do not define themselves as believing in something that is not real. So if you are going to purport to define a Christian's beliefs, then you can present it as their actual belief, rather than your belief.

What you did with your #3 is like defining Christians as those who believe in a "zombie Jesus".

@moonbus said
Well, why do some Christians lay so much emphasis on being able to claim a label which starts with a capital "C"? Christianity (with a capital "C" ) is not a cafeteria where people can pick and choose the dishes they like and ignore the rest. Sure, anyone can make up a list of the bits he likes; however, this moves him out of the mainstream tradition (which lays claim to the ...[text shortened]... I take of Judaism, Zoroastrianism, Islam, Buddhism, Yoruba, the Greek pantheon, and other religions.

Christianity comes with a capital "C" because Christ is capitalized.

Mainstream Christianity may try to "lay claim" to the capital "C", but they cannot. By definition, it is a belief in Christ and his teachings and his promises, whether one is a "mainstream" Christian or not. In my opinion, too much of modern Christianity comes from the Old Testament, which, when viewed through a Christian lens, much of it is now invalid, yet mainstream Christianity still claims that God "never changes". I take issue with the idea that, since I do not subscribe to all of mainstream Christianity's interpretations, this means that I am now in the group of "sects, cults, heretics, and satanists".

@suzianne said
This is all as may be, but yet you insist on defining a religion by claiming they believe in something which YOU claim is not true.

That's right. And this is because I am an ex-Christian and I am defining "a Christian". So I am claiming they believe in something ~ five things, as it happens ~ as laid out in the OP. Meanwhile, because I am an agnostic atheist, I do not subscribe to those Christian beliefs that I listed.

@suzianne said
That you don't "buy into" it, doesn't change what they believe, and yet you present what they believe as "not real", which is signaled by your "air quotes".

I agree. The fact that I do not "buy into" the core Christian beliefs that I mentioned does not change what Christians believe and does not change the fact that those who DO subscribe to those beliefs will NOT think of the things they believe in as being "not real".

@suzianne said
Sorry, but it IS real to them. They do not define themselves as believing in something that is not real.

Christians are defined by what they believe. And, of course, those things they believe in are real to them. You are stating the obvious. We agree. Christians do not define themselves as believing in something that is not real.

@suzianne said
So if you are going to purport to define a Christian's beliefs, then you can present it as their actual belief, rather than your belief.

I presented what I think are Christians' actual beliefs in the OP.

In so doing, I think I have defined "a Christian".

These are not beliefs that I share, but I am able to offer the definition in the OP nevertheless.

@suzianne said
What you did with your #3 is like defining Christians as those who believe in a "zombie Jesus".

I have never used the term "zombie Jesus" and never even considered using it. It is you who has introduced the term "zombie Jesus" into the conversation, not me.

No.3?

A Christian believes that Jesus was crucified and died in order to offer the forgiveness of sins and the opportunity for "salvation".

I think my No.3 of 5 [in the OP] is uncontroversial.

What is it you disagree with, aside from my punctuation?

Why are you thinking about this something or someone that you are calling "zombie Jesus"? I'm not.

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If you think new denominations are closer to Christianity than older ones, then I really do not know what you think Christianity is. It certainly isn't anything related to Jesus or his apostles.