VoidSpirit

Originally posted by boonon
I guess if I could do the things you ask I could possibly question Gods actions.

However I have studied enough to realize that for me , God is real, and God is good. In Him is no darkness, only light.

I have only received good from God. Satan is our accuser, trying to steal our joy.

Have you ever studied the Bible? Done more than read a few passage ...[text shortened]... ing, but my faith grows more as I seek him out more. The more I seek the more He reveals to me.

no ive not read a proper bible. i see no point, other than to improve my knowledge of religion. if i did and i liked the message it spread. then thats all i would take from it. lots of religions have good messages. even proof would not make me a christian, as i dislike the christian god and what i perceive as his immoral actions. he would have a lot of explaining to do.

Originally posted by boonon
Of course I wish I knew all of Gods ways or reasoning. The Bible tells me that right now I can't. It says that all things will be made known upon Christs return. The Bible states that His ways are higher than ours, as it should be since I believe He is the creator of all things.

I wouldn't be human if I didn't have questions. I consider myself humble enou ...[text shortened]... a?

The Bible states that God is sovereign. Since I believe the Bible I believe this also.

You're awesome.
Just like "God" Actually there is no "God" just you.
You have the godseed within you that can be grown into a "god"
All reality comes from our thinking. If our thinking is separate fro "God" ,(the source of all, Spirit) , then you will maintain the schism that exist between you and and the percieved you

Originally posted by boonon
I guess if I could do the things you ask I could possibly question Gods actions.

However I have studied enough to realize that for me , God is real, and God is good. In Him is no darkness, only light.

I have only received good from God. Satan is our accuser, trying to steal our joy.

Have you ever studied the Bible? Done more than read a few passage ...[text shortened]... ing, but my faith grows more as I seek him out more. The more I seek the more He reveals to me.

If God is only good, with no darkness and only light. How do you reconcile Isaiah 45:7?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
no ive not read a proper bible. i see no point, other than to improve my knowledge of religion. if i did and i liked the message it spread. then thats all i would take from it. lots of religions have good messages. even proof would not make me a christian, as i dislike the christian god and what i perceive as his immoral actions. he would have a lot of explaining to do.

Religion is man made. God seeks a personal relationship with us. There is a difference. You say that even with proof you would not accept God? I can't argue with that because it is your choice. I hope you will change your mind someday though.

Thanks for your questions and thoughts. I readily admit I don't have all the answers you seek but hope that someday something I say might be of encouragement for you.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
If God is only good, with no darkness and only light. How do you reconcile Isaiah 45:7?

Sure I will try to show you the difference.

The scripture I referenced was from 1John 1:5

If you read this chapter(it is short) it is talking about evilness/sin. Saying that God does not have those attributes.

The scripture you reference Isaiah 45:7 is showing what God created, the sun, which separates the darkness(not evil/sin) but actual darkness, the absence of the sun. Verse 6 leads us to what he is talking about in verse 7.

Originally posted by boonon
Sure I will try to show you the difference.

The scripture I referenced was from 1John 1:5

If you read this chapter(it is short) it is talking about evilness/sin. Saying that God does not have those attributes.

The scripture you reference Isaiah 45:7 is showing what God created, the sun, which separates the darkness(not evil/sin) but actual darkness, the absence of the sun. Verse 6 leads us to what he is talking about in verse 7.

The first part of Isaiah 45:7 references light/darkness as you stated -

I form the light, and create darkness

but this is other part of the sentence -

I make peace, and create evil.

or

I send good times and bad times

or

happiness and sorrow

All depending on which translation you go for. If God is only good as you say why is he admitting creating evil, bad times or sorrow?

Originally posted by Proper Knob
The first part of Isaiah 45:7 references light/darkness as you stated -

I form the light, and create darkness

but this is other part of the sentence -

I make peace, and create evil.

or

I send good times and bad times

or

happiness and sorrow

All depending on which translat ...[text shortened]... u go for. If God is only good as you say why is he admitting creating evil, bad times or sorrow?

I have questioned this as do you. This is some of what I have studied.

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence.

(2) The context of Isaiah 45:7 makes it clear that something other than “bringing moral evil into existence” is in mind. The context of Isaiah 45:7 is God rewarding Israel for obedience and punishing Israel for disobedience. God pours out salvation and blessings on those whom He favors. God brings judgment on those who continue to rebel against Him. “Woe to him who quarrels with his Master” (Isaiah 45:9). That is the person to whom God brings “evil” and “disaster.” So, rather than saying that God created “moral evil,” Isaiah 45:7 is presenting a common theme of Scripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.

Originally posted by boonon
I have questioned this as do you. This is some of what I have studied.

Answer: Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) Th ...[text shortened]... cripture – that God brings disaster on those who continue in hard-hearted rebellion against Him.

Thanks for the considered reply.

Whatever the translation of that particular word maybe, incidentally the Blue Letter Bible translator gives it as 'bad, evil, distress, misery, injury or calamity', it is the opposite of 'good'.

Interestingly the verb which comes before 'evil, bad, distress' or whichever word you choose to use in Isaiah 45:7 , is the same one used in Gen 1:1. So i don't think there can be any ambiguity here that God is responsible for 'creating' something which is in stark contrast to 'good'.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Thanks for the considered reply.

Whatever the translation of that particular word maybe, incidentally the Blue Letter Bible translator gives it as 'bad, evil, distress, misery, injury or calamity', it is the opposite of 'good'.

Interestingly the verb which comes before 'evil, bad, distress' or whichever word you choose to use in Isaiah 45:7 , is t ...[text shortened]... hat God is responsible for 'creating' something which is in stark contrast to 'good'.

Interesting, thank you.

When God punishes evil or rebellious people, I see how you say that he is being evil himself. If he needs to punish like the Bible says I believe that he must do bad things to bad people. You cant punish with good actions. How do I/we perceive this as a good thing, punishment from God? Great thoughts to ponder. I would say that Gods ways are right and just. I myself cannot question Gods actions because I am merely human.

Good points though. It will add to my list of studies.

Originally posted by boonon
Interesting, thank you.

When God punishes evil or rebellious people, I see how you say that he is being evil himself. If he needs to punish like the Bible says I believe that he must do bad things to bad people. You cant punish with good actions. How do I/we perceive this as a good thing, punishment from God? Great thoughts to ponder. I would say that Gods ...[text shortened]... ods actions because I am merely human.

Good points though. It will add to my list of studies.

does christianity see evil as absolute? are there degrees of evil with different levels of punishment? why do people become 'evil'?

Originally posted by stellspalfie
does christianity see evil as absolute? are there degrees of evil with different levels of punishment? why do people become 'evil'?

I can only answer for myself, not Chritianity as a whole. As you have pointed out there are differing thoughts on things by people who are considered Christian.
As far as evil being absolute:

If I am understanding you correctly I would say no. The apostle Paul was very evil before he became a follower of Jesus. He persecuted and killed many Christians. He went to preach at towns and people could not believe he was the same person.

different degrees of evil with different punishments

The Bible says that sin is sin. God see's it as all bad. Having said that .... When Moses came down from the mountain and saw the Isrealites worshipping a golden calf he told them that God said that had committed a grievous sin ( worshipping another God). It is clear that God thought this was worse than say coveting your neighbors wife. As far as punishment for evil/sin the Bible says that the wages of sin is death, no different degrees of death/punishment just death.

[b] why do people become evil [b/]

We are all born evil/sinful. It is our inherited nature from Adam. Through him and Eve sin entered into our world. As children we are bad from the start. I didn't teach my three kids to be bad. A few examples would be not wanting to share their toys, hitting their sibling when they took something of theirs, throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way. Being nice , sharing , giving respect to others is something learned or taught as a child, not something we are born with.

Originally posted by boonon
I can only answer for myself, not Chritianity as a whole. As you have pointed out there are differing thoughts on things by people who are considered Christian.
[b]As far as evil being absolute:

If I am understanding you correctly I would say no. The apostle Paul was very evil before he became a follower of Jesus. He persecuted and killed many Christ ...[text shortened]... respect to others is something learned or taught as a child, not something we are born with.[/b]

"As children we are bad from the start."
A few examples would be not wanting to share their toys, hitting their sibling when they took something of theirs, throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way

im pretty shocked at what you have written. do all christians believe that children behave the way they do because they are born bad?

science would suggest children behave like this as babies because their brains have not fully developed, especially the cerebellum. this makes babies and toddlers struggle to control their emotions. adults with damage to their cerebellum show similar behavior.
how would you reconcile your view of evil with what we know through science?

many people commit 'evil' acts when they themselves have been the victim of 'evil' acts. is it fair that innocence should be turned to evil through no fault of its own. the majority of people who become pedophiles do so because they themselves were abused as children. it would seem the child is being doubly punished. first a victim of evil and then made to become evil.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"As children we are bad from the start."
A few examples would be not wanting to share their toys, hitting their sibling when they took something of theirs, throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way

im pretty shocked at what you have written. do all christians believe that children behave the way they do because they are born ba ...[text shortened]... the child is being doubly punished. first a victim of evil and then made to become evil.[/b]

I'm not sure what other Christians think. I told you that this was my own opinion.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
[b]"As children we are bad from the start."
A few examples would be not wanting to share their toys, hitting their sibling when they took something of theirs, throwing a tantrum when they didn't get their way

im pretty shocked at what you have written. do all christians believe that children behave the way they do because they are born ba ...[text shortened]... the child is being doubly punished. first a victim of evil and then made to become evil.[/b]

We all have a choice to make. Our environment does not have to dictate our behavior. I have been a guardian of a 16 year old boy for about a year. The first 15 years of his life were horrendous. The abuse he suffered from his mother and father are unspeakable. He shows no signs of carrying on his parents traits or of abusing others like he was. He is one of the most 'normal' 16 year olds I have ever met. How do we attribute this if we go by your scientific facts?

Originally posted by boonon
I can only answer for myself, not Chritianity as a whole. As you have pointed out there are differing thoughts on things by people who are considered Christian.
[b]As far as evil being absolute:

If I am understanding you correctly I would say no. The apostle Paul was very evil before he became a follower of Jesus. He persecuted and killed many Christ ...[text shortened]... respect to others is something learned or taught as a child, not something we are born with.[/b]

We are born sinful/evil... time for new thread.