Thoughtcrimes

If you desire something enough, and keep thinking about it, that is when you are most likely to tread the path to doing something about it to get it.

Put it out of your mind (sometimes easier said than done) you have less chance of acting on those thought.

Philokalia's example about somebody with a rape of pedophile fantasy uncovers another channel. I love the friends that I have and would never consider doing them any harm or act of treachery against them. Somebody dwelling on this kind of thing seems to me like an accident waiting to happen.

@medullah said
If you desire something enough, and keep thinking about it, that is when you are most likely to tread the path to doing something about it to get it.

Morality governs the treading of the path and not the thinking about it, I'd say.

@philokalia said
This is a very nihilistic approach.

Nihilistic?

@fmf said
I think talking about raping a woman to someone else would be immoral. Morality governs deeds not thoughts, to my way of thinking.

Obviously, morality governs neither deeds or thoughts necessarily, as people do what they want, but I understand we all make errors when we are writing. I am sure you would do the favor of pointing this out to me if I was the one who did it.
...

But you are not proving your point. You are just stating it.

@philokalia said
Obviously, morality governs neither deeds or thoughts necessarily, as people do what they want, but I understand we all make errors when we are writing.

My moral compass governs my behaviour. The same goes for you. Shared moral values in the societies where we live help to shape the moral compasses that we use to govern ourselves. The fact that some people just do what they want and act in immoral ways, by my standards, or your standards, or more broadly by society's standards, does not negate what I am saying.

@philokalia said
But you are not proving your point. You are just stating it.

It's a very subjective area. It's not as if I am claiming that you will be burned alive ~ or will deserve to be ~ for not sharing my belief. So, don't worry too much about whether I have proved my point or not to your satisfaction. If you don't believe that, for acts to be immoral, they need to have victims, so be it.

@fmf said
Nihilistic?

In the sense of Fr. Seraphim Rose talking about nihilism as it behaves as pragmatic utilitarianism; there is no truth, so we just navigate based off of the most rudimentary calculations that we can make, not leaning on any principles much, and certainly not propping up virtues and vices.

@philokalia said
In the sense of Fr. Seraphim Rose talking about nihilism as it behaves as pragmatic utilitarianism; there is no truth, so we just navigate based off of the most rudimentary calculations that we can make, not leaning on any principles much, and certainly not propping up virtues and vices.

Our moral compasses are the product of nature and nurture ~ constantly being assessed, solidified or modified by experience and narratives.

The moral compasses' existence is as good a piece of evidence that we are created beings as theists have. This might be a better way for you to go ~ the notion of the implanting of conscience ~ because quoting Fr. Seraphim Rose on "nihilism" ~ doesn't work for me.

Whoever he is, and regardless of the fact you agree with him, he can declare his own subjective moral calculations as being based on some version of the "truth" - that needs to replace my perception of what is right or wrong - until he is blue in the face, assuming he's still alive.

His religious beliefs come under the title "nurture" and/or "experience and narrative".

@fmf said
Morality governs the treading of the path and not the thinking about it, I'd say.

There is such a thing as an innocent thought that appears immoral... for instance, if we saw a car that was unlocked with the keys in the inition, and the driver is nowhere to be seen, we would think for a moment, "I could just steal this car!"

That is not an immoral thought... it's almost an observation.

Indeed, we cannot really avoid anger and sexual urges, but someone who actively enjoys & ventures into these kinds of thoughts is having immoral thoughts.

If someone said that, every time they see a black person, they think racial slurs, and imagine what they could do to get that person out of their sight, you'd surely see that as an immoral series of thoughts.

But what can I say.

There's no way to appeal to a materialist who likely has a very narrow definition of morality anyways.

@philokalia said
If someone said that, every time they see a black person, they think racial slurs, and imagine what they could do to get that person out of their sight, you'd surely see that as an immoral series of thoughts.

No, I wouldn't. Have you not been reading what I've been saying?

@philokalia said
There's no way to appeal to a materialist who likely has a very narrow definition of morality anyways.

If your definition of morality, now that you have recently joined the Orthodox Catholic Church, is suddenly the same as what is defined by the Orthodox Catholic Church, how does that make your definition less narrow than mine?

@philokalia said
Indeed, we cannot really avoid anger and sexual urges, but someone who actively enjoys & ventures into these kinds of thoughts is having immoral thoughts.

By "actively enjoys & ventures", do you mean taking action?

@fmf said
No, I wouldn't. Have you not been reading what I've been saying?

Your error is in thinking that I believe you perfectly resolve your theories with your actual humanity.

Most people suffer from some degree of hypocrisy, after all.

@fmf said
If your definition of morality, now that you have recently joined the Orthodox Catholic Church, is suddenly the same as what is defined by the Orthodox Catholic Church, how does that make your definition less narrow than mine?

Your problem here is with how narrow is being used. You misread the context.

Any religion, no matter how dogmatic, will have a very broad view of morality -- morality is applicable to all kinds of things, and is usually universal.

Atheist materialists consider few things immoral. Some, perhaps, even consider nothing immoral, and consider morality to be completely a construct.

@fmf said
By "actively enjoys & ventures", do you mean taking action?

I consider thought a type of action.