18 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999So the scriptures at the time of Paul we now refer to as the OT. The 12 additional books you refer to are the Apocrypha. Teachings of Christ are the NT. Do I understand you on all three of these points? If so, how does what Paul says is scripture differ from what Christians of today say is scripture?
The scripture in the days of the early church was the Hebrew Tanak or the Greek Septuagint [these included about 12 additional books]. Teachings of Christ was handed now by word of mouth.
18 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999You asked who was the greater authority Jesus or Paul because Paul wrote that righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ as opposed to works.
I dont disbelieve anything Paul wrote. I have repeatedly said that you need to have a complete understanding of the writings of the Apostles because if you cherrypick their writings you will end up with false doctrines. The writings of the Apostles match the teachings of Christ perfectly.
eg in Ephesians 2 Paul told Christian saints that they are saved ...[text shortened]... ne Eph 2 sentence from Paul and make it their doctrine, and ignore the rest... like what you do.
Originally posted by leunammiPauls scripture was the KJV of 1611 minus the New Testament. That should answer your question.
So the scriptures at the time of Paul we now refer to as the OT. The 12 additional books you refer to are the Apocrypha. Teachings of Christ are the NT. Do I understand you on all three of these points? If so, how does what Paul says is scripture differ from what Christians of today say is scripture?
Originally posted by Rajk999Taking the entirety of what you write into consideration and the immediate context in which you write things like this, it's pretty apparent that what you have in mind is that they do not believe that following Jesus is a requirement for being saved. Wonder why they can't SEE it.
Its one of the paradoxes of Christianity that they preach Christ saves, but he is not to be followed. Strange!
Do you think that there might be a parallel as to how they approach scripture? It's clear that you do try to consider both the entirety and the immediate context and can provide both scripture and reasoning to back it up unlike they do. I still don't think it's possible to reasonably reconcile the doctrine of Paul with the doctrine of Jesus, but at least you make an honest effort unlike them.
I don't expect either leunammi or Fetchmyjunk to admit anytime soon that they don't know of any passages where, while He walked the Earth, Jesus taught that it is impossible for anyone to "keep his commands all the time".
18 Dec 16
1 edit
Originally posted by ThinkOfOne
Taking the entirety of what you write into consideration and the immediate context in which you write things like this, it's pretty apparent that what you have in mind is that they do not believe that following Jesus is a requirement for being saved. Wonder why they can't SEE it.
Do you think that there might be a parallel as to how they approach scrip ...[text shortened]... ed the Earth, Jesus taught that it is impossible for anyone to "keep his commands all the time".
I don't expect either leunammi or Fetchmyjunk to admit anytime soon that they don't know of any passages where, while He walked the Earth, Jesus taught that it is impossible for anyone to "keep his commands all the time".
Do you keep his commands all the time? If not why not?
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by leunammiYou are asking a different question. It is you that quoted Paul statement on 'scripture'. I said scripture in the time of Paul was the Septuagint. What is the scripture for Christians? I dont know about others but for me I read all of it including the Septuagint and other books not in the Bible.
It kind of only answers half of my question. What is the scripture for Christians if not KJV? I would rather not assume to know your mind.
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by leunammiInteresting why you need to resort to personal questions all the time. You did it with me several times and it has no bearing on what is the doctrine of Christ?I don't expect either leunammi or Fetchmyjunk to admit anytime soon that they don't know of any passages where, while He walked the Earth, Jesus taught that it is impossible for anyone to "keep his commands all the time".
Do you keep his commands all the time? If not why not?
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by ThinkOfOneI believe both to be compatible if taken as a whole. Both preach faith and works, although Christ stresses more works while Paul focuses on faith. In the end its all the same. However many Christians tend to take the doctrine most favourable to them. It is nice to hear that all one needs to do is to profess their faith and thats it. But these are not serious Christians and God cannot be fooled with lip service.
Taking the entirety of what you write into consideration and the immediate context in which you write things like this, it's pretty apparent that what you have in mind is that they do not believe that following Jesus is a requirement for being saved. Wonder why they can't SEE it.
Do you think that there might be a parallel as to how they approach scrip ...[text shortened]... ed the Earth, Jesus taught that it is impossible for anyone to "keep his commands all the time".
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Unless of course the lip service is on one's death bed.
I believe both to be compatible if taken as a whole. Both preach faith and works, although Christ stresses more works while Paul focuses on faith. In the end its all the same. However many Christians tend to take the doctrine most favourable to them. It is nice to hear that all one needs to do is to profess their faith and thats it. But these are not serious Christians and God cannot be fooled with lip service.
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by Rajk999Let me ask it this way.
You are asking a different question. It is you that quoted Paul statement on 'scripture'. I said scripture in the time of Paul was the Septuagint. What is the scripture for Christians? I dont know about others but for me I read all of it including the Septuagint and other books not in the Bible.
Rajk999...
First what Paul calls scripture not what Christians now call scripture [something worth thinking about]. Paul says to preach, correct, rebuke because the time will come when people will turn their ears from the truth.
You have established what you believe Paul calls scripture. What I am asking you is, what is it that Christians now call scripture? Is it the bible without the apocryphal books? Simple question.
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by chaney3I believe the story of the thief on the cross shows - at least ideologically, I don't subscribe to it, or its alternatives - that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved. The thieves were mocking Jesus, and yet - apparently - one of them was saved (according to one of the gospels anyway). He was saved despite not being one of Jesus' followers and despite mocking him in his dying moments. Presumably he was saved because of some redeeming features of his life that, of course, the Bible doesn't go into because the writers did not know anything about him. 🙂
Or on a cross next to Jesus.
19 Dec 16
Originally posted by FMFNo, I believe that 1 of the 2 thieves ultimately came to believe that Jesus was the Son of God, before he died.
I believe the story of the thief on the cross shows - at least ideologically, I don't subscribe to it, or its alternatives - that you don't have to believe in Jesus to be saved. The thieves were mocking Jesus, and yet - apparently - one of them was saved (according to one of the gospels anyway). He was saved despite not being one of Jesus' followers and despite ...[text shortened]... at, of course, the Bible doesn't go into because the writers did not know anything about him. 🙂
He may have mocked Him initially, but changed his mind at the end.