The Persecution of Roman Catholics

Originally posted by ivanhoe
If I understand you well, people of little intellectual capacities, and you will be the judge of that of course, can be harrassed because they are what they are. Right ?

I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed myself, but, I do want to learn. I do want to hear other points of view. I love to be challenged intellectually. This site gives us all a great opportunity to be share unique ideas and perspectives. However, the closed minded and those, who in my perception, are stupid, aggrivate me. I've struggled with my own beliefs and in questioning others as to why they believe what they do I look for truth. I fear the truth I've found is that existances ends in nothingness. This saddens me and I'd love to be convinced otherwise. Reciting dogma to me is hardly convincing. I want quantitative and qualitative analysis to lead me to the truth.

I've seen more than my fair share of death. Through misfortune I've seen the life seep out of people and I've seen the fear and nothingness in there eyes. I've seen mental disorders, disease, drug abuse and old age take peoples lives far before the life leaves there bodies. Its repugnant. I've lost my faith Ivanhoe.

I'll give you one example as to why I doubt the existance of God. I used to play Chess with a gentleman with advanced MS. His wife and family had long since left him to die in an assited living home where my wife works. Most of the people in the home were of diminished mental capacity due to age and various disorders and the nurses wouldn't take the time to talk with him. This man was a brilliant mind trapped in a crippled shell of a body. My weekly visits we're one of his few chances to talk to someone and they exhausted him. Towards the end he couldn't even move the pieces and much to his frustration I'd have to move them for him. One day a nurse clipped his toenails to close and nicked him. This sadly developed into a massive infection, killing him painfully and slowly. He was terrified to die and angry at God for destroying him. The fear was palpable. He was moved to a nursing home for critical care and gradually over the course of months died in a sea of infection, shame and despair. Eventually he asked me not to come and I, I'm ashamed to say, was relieved. I wept when he died.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
If I am being harrassed because of my alleged short fuse then why was (is) Lucifershammer being harrassed by no1marauder and frogstomp and why are Blindfaith, RBHill and other Christians being harrassed and insulted continuously ? I remember christians, not all fundamentalists if that makes a difference, leaving the site for this very reason. Did they all ha ...[text shortened]... ng harrassed because of their religious and political stances, NOT because they violate the ToS.

I think even you would agree that not all xtians on this site are hounded off it . There are some whose contibutions are welcomed even by the likes of me . Granted it's a short list . But there are other non xtians who are hounded as well , and some hounded off the site . Do you recognize this ? Maybe all who are hounded are not hounded because of their religion . Has that occured to you ? You are right though in looking for a connection . There is one . What , Ivanhoe , is the ONE thing these pour hounded souls have in common ?

They're A$$HOLES !!!!

They author posts having the following things in common :
1) It's blanket statement which is usually quite insensitive to a large segment of the population .
2) They know it will be inflamitory but post it anyway .
3) It deliberately leaves out important evidence , fact , or room for any other point of view and is therefore stupid/moronic .
4) React with a sense of injustice , martyrdom , hurt when the people targeted with the propaganda have the INTENDED bad reaction . / or the obvious holes in the post are pointed out .

What about STANG , katty , scippio77777(or whatever the frick his name is)and SVW ? They are hounded for their politics , views or/and demeanor regularly , but not because they are xtians . All of the poor persecuted xtian souls you cited are "hounded" for the same reasons as the non xtians jerkweasels on the site are .

There are some who are blasted at for one thing or another but fight back or shrug it off . They don't react with this feigned persecution complex , and a reliance on the site admins bailing them out when the fight they start gets too rough . This is flat out exploitation of the human decency and sense of fair play they have and you lack . And it's this "Tyrany of the Meek" which pours gas on our fire . When have you EVER seen Ravello , darvlay , me , frogstomp , Dr Scribbles , Joe Fist , (any of your persecutors ) run crying to site admin because we got our knee scrapped in a pissy fight on the forums ?

So yes you're being hounded .

No it's not because you're a christian .

Yes it is because you're a tool .

No it ain't ever going to change unless you do .

In short - Grow up . If you want to play tackle football with the big boys expect to get a bloody nose or a scrapped elbow from time to time . If you can't take that then maybe you shouldn't play , but you certainly shouldn't be throwing cheap shots and expecting special treatment after the fact .

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
I think even you would agree that not all xtians on this site are hounded off it . There are some whose contibutions are welcomed even by the likes of me . Granted it's a short list . But there are other non xtians who are hounded as well , and some hounded off the site . Do you recognize this ? Maybe all who are hounded are not hounded because of their ...[text shortened]... ou certainly shouldn't be throwing cheap shots and expecting special treatment after the fact .

Amen!!! I used to be a strong safety in high school, let's play some ball!!!!

Thank you for taking up this cause. Doesn't it ever get old that common sanity and politeness is pretty much missing from most of these threads? I admire your stamina.

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
I think even you would agree that not all xtians on this site are hounded off it . There are some whose contibutions are welcomed even by the likes of me . Granted it's a short list . But there are other non xtians who are hounded as well , and some hounded off the site . Do you recognize this ? Maybe all who are hounded are not hounded because of their ...[text shortened]... ou certainly shouldn't be throwing cheap shots and expecting special treatment after the fact .

Awesome !

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed myself, but, I do want to learn. I do want to hear other points of view. I love to be challenged intellectually. This site gives us all a great opportunity to be share unique ideas and perspectives. However, the closed minded and those, who in my perception, are stupid, aggrivate me. I've struggled with my ...[text shortened]... entually he asked me not to come and I, I'm ashamed to say, was relieved. I wept when he died.

I'm sorry to hear about your sad experiences. The most difficult aspect of human existence to grasp or understand is the suffering human beings have to face and endure. Fully understanding this existential reality is impossible for us, human beings. People react to it in different ways. Some may lose their will to live, many get angry, some get desperate, many get enraged, many become frightened, some may even react to it with sheer panic.

An effective answer to suffering is the one you have given in visiting and talking to the gentleman with advanced MS. The answer you gave to suffering is giving love, friendship, attention and consolation to those who suffer. Doing this is very hard. It means you have to share the suffering with those who are suffering. Many people do not have that strength. You showed that strenght and at the same time this experience knocked you off your feet.

You stated you've lost your faith. Do you mind if I disagree with you ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
I'm sorry to hear about your sad experiences. The most difficult aspect of human existence to grasp or understand is the suffering human beings have to face and endure. Fully understanding this existential reality is impossible for us, human beings. People react to it in different ways. Some may lose their will to live, many get angry, some get desperate, m ...[text shortened]... d you off your feet.

You stated you've lost your faith. Do you mind if I disagree with you ?

You can disagree if you like. Appreciate, if you will, that my faith and my search for truth in the purpose of life is a serious struggle for me. It would be infinitely easier for me if I believed that a supreme being guided my life and protected me. Not believing is painful and difficult. I try to live a good life, full of interesting things, see the humor in things, pursue enlightenment and be true to myself.

Unfortunately, I've yet to find proof that God exists. I haven't been able to do this honestly and I'm not going to blindly lie to myself. Ultimately we all make the walk into nothingness alone and I'm sure I'll go fighting till the last just as Brian did, but, perhaps it would be kinder if we'd never lived at all.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
You can disagree if you like. Appreciate, if you will, that my faith and my search for truth in the purpose of life is a serious struggle for me. It would be infinitely easier for me if I believed that a supreme being guided my life and protected me. Not believing is painful and difficult. I try to live a good life, full of interesting things, see ...[text shortened]... ng till the last just as Brian did, but, perhaps it would be kinder if we'd never lived at all.

HoH: " Appreciate, if you will, that my faith and my search for truth in the purpose of life is a serious struggle for me."

Of course it is. I do not doubt this. I hope you agree with me that I took your post very seriously.

HoH: "It would be infinitely easier for me if I believed that a supreme being guided my life and protected me."

In the case of the gentleman with MS you CHOSE to let yourself be guided by love and friendship. Nobody forced you to do this. If you choose that guidance in life you must be prepared to suffer. This is, in my view, the experience you had which knocked (knocks?) you off your feet, so to speak. This is the shocking Truth with which we are confronted if we look at the suffering Jesus on the Cross, the Crucified Love.
There comes a time in every believers life wherein he has to say good-bye to the belief in the Santa-image of God. There is no Santa. The Truth is the bitter Truth of the Crucified Love. If one has accepted this, usually after a long and difficult battle, one has managed to accept a Truth and one has managed to obtain the beginning of a truly mature faith.

HoH: " ..... and protected me"

.... whether you are protected or not depends on how you choose to look at it. If you choose Love's guidance in life you will not be protected in the sense you will not have to suffer here in this life, but you are protected in an eschatological sense, meaning you will have eternal life and happiness in presence of the One whom you have chosen to serve and to be with, the One who loves you and is Love and Life itself.

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]HoH: " Appreciate, if you will, that my faith and my search for truth in the purpose of life is a serious struggle for me."

Of course it is. I do not doubt this. I hope you agree with me that I took your post very seriously.

HoH: "It would be infinitely easier for me if I believed that a supreme being guided my life and protected me." ...[text shortened]... whom you have chosen to serve and to be with, the One who loves you and is Love and Life itself.[/b]

I appreciate your well thought out response. However, the root of the issue is not just Brian's death. Long before his gradual decline I had been looking for purpose in life, looking for evidence of God, looking for verifiable and repeatable proof of dvinity. None was forthcoming and my search has remained fruitless.

To try lighten the discussion somewhat, I simply can't have blind faith, I don't see Jesus in a piece of grilled cheese sandwich and I don't feel God's prescence in the world. I see a host of other religions flourishing across the word, I see the origins of all of them being bred from humanity's fear, uncertainty and doubt. Even today, you see religion being used to control peoples thoughts and deeds. Religion is mankind's security blanket fending off the darkness that lurks around its edges. I can't close my eyes and accept blindfaith101's assertion that the bible is the unreproachable truth.

To me, truth must be verifiable. All things decay, all things die, life is an enormous crap shoot and not one of us matters in the grand scheme of things. Try contemplating infinity for a moment and how truly small this ball of mud we are riding is, insignificant. Not a pleasant thought for me and its apparent that if there is a God, we're an after thought at best. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to hear it.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I appreciate your well thought out response. However, the root of the issue is not just Brian's death. Long before his gradual decline I had been looking for purpose in life, looking for evidence of God, looking for verifiable and repeatable proof of dvinity. None was forthcoming and my search has remained fruitless.

To try lighten the discussi ...[text shortened]... we're an after thought at best. If you have evidence to the contrary I'd be happy to hear it.

After reading carefully, what do you think my answers are telling you ?

Originally posted by ivanhoe
After reading carefully, what do you think my answers are telling you ?

Ivanhoe "one has managed to accept a Truth and one has managed to obtain the beginning of a truly mature faith."

I take this as, faith is supposed to be exactly that, just faith. Suffering is inevitable and, despite that, the challenge is to maintain a commitment to God through Jesus Christ. If it was easy everyone would do it right?

Lets assume that I did believe, wanted to believe and had accepted the Truth so to speak. This would mean that Christ lived within me and that my decisions must reflect his presence. I have made the decision, come to the conclussion, that, if God exists, he doesn't give a crap. This is not a flippant or easily made conclusion, actually quite the opposite. Somewhere along the line he fell asleep at the wheel, if he was driving at all. Despair and fear lead me to this and the path back would have to be one of tangible proof I'm afraid.

Hungry Gods are hard to please and ones that don't answer will have you on your knees.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
[b]Ivanhoe "one has managed to accept a Truth and one has managed to obtain the beginning of a truly mature faith."

I take this as, faith is supposed to be exactly that, just faith. Suffering is inevitable and, despite that, the challenge is to maintain a commitment to God through Jesus Christ. If it was easy everyone would do it right? ...[text shortened]... raid.

Hungry Gods are hard to please and ones that don't answer will have you on your knees.[/b]

HoH: "Somewhere along the line he fell asleep at the wheel, if he was driving at all."

It sometimes seems this way, but faith sometimes means believing against all odds. It takes trust and confidence. If you ask God for this, you will recieve it. However, you may have to wait a while or maybe even a considerable period of time. Hang in there. Remember, the only true God is not a Santa, nor a Superman, but a Man who was unjustly crucified to a cross.

HoH: "Despair and fear lead me to this and the path back would have to be one of tangible proof I'm afraid."

Before Jesus ascended into heaven he left us with the following words:

"Peace I leave with you; my peace I give you. I do not give to you as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

John 14:27

Originally posted by ivanhoe
[b]HoH: "Somewhere along the line he fell asleep at the wheel, if he was driving at all."

It sometimes seems this way, but faith sometimes means believing against all odds. It takes trust and confidence. If you ask God for this, you will recieve it. However, you may have to wait a while or maybe even a considerable period of time. Hang in there. Re ...[text shortened]... ou as the world gives. Do not let your hearts be troubled and do not be afraid."

John 14:27[/b]

I'm tired of it Ivanhoe, too many wicked deeds are done in the name of religion. I think I'm better off try to find a peace within myself and find fulfillment in simple things.

Originally posted by Hand of Hecate
I'm tired of it Ivanhoe, too many wicked deeds are done in the name of religion. I think I'm better off try to find a peace within myself and find fulfillment in simple things.

If this is what you have to do now, I suggest you do it.

Originally posted by Moldy Crow
I think even you would agree that not all xtians on this site are hounded off it . There are some whose contibutions are welcomed even by the likes of me . Granted it's a short list . But there are other non xtians who are hounded as well , and some hounded off the site . Do you recognize this ? Maybe all who are hounded are not hounded because of their ...[text shortened]... ou certainly shouldn't be throwing cheap shots and expecting special treatment after the fact .

I just have to comment again on how well Moldy Crow has summed up so succinctly the way I and probably many others feel. Thumbs up!!!!

Originally posted by Joe Fist
I just have to comment again on how well Moldy Crow has summed up so succinctly the way I and probably many others feel. Thumbs up!!!!

Ivanhoe's comments about this post are conspicuous in their absence .