The Most Important Writing to Understand

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
...lack of belief [isn't] the deciding factor to receive eternal torment [...] and you are unable to support such tripe with anything scriptural without extreme contextual gymnastics.

The gymnastics are all sonship's. Haven't you read any of his post on eternal torture over the last 3-4 years? You should do so. If you think his theology is "tripe", you should address him directly.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
... your misunderstanding ... your ignorance ... you have no idea ... your childish self ... your underdeveloped perspective ... your immaturity ... self-centered and therefore, immature ... how offensive you're being ... you are not the center of human history, nor the center of the universe ... you are totally unaware ... your bumbling of concepts ...

Oh dear. Lots of online red herring huff and puff from you but no substance, no argument.

Originally posted by FMF
Oh dear. Lots of online red herring huff and puff from you but no substance, no argument.

Oh dear. The usual posturing on your part without a scintilla of merit otherwise.
I don't know what we're to do with you, bless your heart.

Originally posted by FMF
The gymnastics are all sonship's. Haven't you read any of his post on eternal torture over the last 3-4 years? You should do so. If you think his theology is "tripe", you should address him directly.

I consider your theology tripe.
Now.
About those scripture references which support your torture language?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I consider your theology tripe.
Now.
About those scripture references which support your torture language?

It's not my theology. Take it up with sonship, as I have, if you're interested in his torture-vengeance-wrath-eternity ideology.

Originally posted by sonship
As God's salvation renders the saved to become more and more like Christ maybe the opposite is true too. The unreconciled rebel against God being separated from God forever becomes more and more just like Satan.

But many unbelievers are unbelievers because they:

Have never heard the gospel
Have heard a version of it and reject your or other people's version of a torturer God
Have been sucked into a cult, abused and now reject all religion
We're abused as children, either sexually or psychologically by religious parents of religious authority figures
Cannot comprehend the gospel through a lack of faith or find it simply unbelievable and unconvincing

Yes, while all have fallen short, and all have turned away and all works and effort is like filthy rags; perhaps you grouping people together as becoming "more and more just like Satan" as a construct for helping you rationalise the eternal torture of countless millions of people for all eternity, is not the best outcome of your particular interpretation of scripture.

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
Your decision to equate torment with torture is a conscious, willfull act in an attempt to paint a picture which doesn't exist.
You continue your bumbling of concepts by declaring lack of belief is the deciding factor to receive eternal torment.
It isn't, and you are unable to support such tripe with anything scriptural without extreme contextual gymnastics.

I'd be interested in understanding from you the differencial you perceive between "tormented for eternity" and "tortured for eternity" in the context of the teaching of "eternal suffering" which you and sonship seem to think is gods perfect justice?

Originally posted by FreakyKBH
I consider your theology tripe.
Now.
About those scripture references which support your torture language?

How about this one to kick things off. Here we have those receiving the "mark of the beast" (and let's face it, who knows exactly what that is), being tormented for ever and ever while Jesus and his angels watch.

Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the wine of God’s wrath, poured full strength into the cup of his anger, and he will be tormented with fire and sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever, and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Originally posted by divegeester

Dive, We re-visit old discussions again ?

But many unbelievers are unbelievers because they:

Have never heard the gospel

I don't believe out God is a lifeless unaware machine with only mechanical cogs, chains and wheels relentless churning out products devoid of depth of understanding.

Early in the writing, in Genesis you have Abraham, who is called that father of faith, challenge God boldly about His fairness in judgment. The end of those challenges to God is Abraham expressing confidence that "Will not the Judge of all the earth do justly." (Gen. 18:25)

I have made the decision that this early bold conversion between emboldened Abraham and God lays the groundwork for me to trust the justice of God throughout the rest of the Bible.

You should know the story, especially Genesis 18:23-33. Abraham repeatedly tests God challenging Him by His own character, to be assured that the judgment of Sodom and Gamorrah will not unduly effect any inhabitant there unjustly.

You make your own decision. I have made the decision that He CANNOT fail to do justly.

Can't you see in other pages of the Bible indications of God taking into account culpability and knowledge of sinners? I can. Many examples could be given.

many ...
Have heard a version of it and reject your or other people's version of a torturer God

See paragraph above.

Have been sucked into a cult, abused and now reject all religion
We're abused as children, either sexually or psychologically by religious parents of religious authority figures

See paragraph above again.

I have made the decision that the "father of faith" Abraham spoke true truth, when he uttered these words early in the first book Genesis.

"Far be it from You to do such a thing, to put to death the righteous with the wicked, so that the righteous should be as the wicked. Far be it from You! shall the Judge of all the earth not do justly?" (18:25)

I don't know if Abraham knew anything about eternal destinies. But in principle I think he grasped that God would not "that the righteous should be as the wicked" .

Not that any are truly righteous before God since the fall of Adam. But "the righteous" should indicate levels of culpability. And as we read through the rest of Genesis and the Old Testament it is hard to deny God appears to discriminate culpability.

Face it Dive. We're just repeating over old ground which we have gone over before.
The book of Jonah is nearly dedicated to the truth of God's reluctance to have to judge people. The final verse famously concludes the story -

" And I [God], should I not have pity on Nineveh, the great city, in which are more than a hundred and twenty thousand people who cannot discern between their right hand and their left, and many cattle? " (Jonah 3:11)

The prophet Jonah was dismayed because he didn't want God to be merciful to bona fide enemies of Israel. Jonah so wanted them judged that he ran away from his assignment to warn them.

The book ends with God showing that He knew the precise count of humans in that place of judgment who should be exempted. He rounded up and said -

" ... that great city, in which there are more than a hundred and twenty thousand ... "

God judged 120,000 should receive consideration concerning their knowledge and culpability. I don't see why we should expect Him to be unaware at the last judgment.

So I count together these two great themes in the Bible.

1.) God's omniscience and righteous evaluation.

2.) God's ultimate final judgment.

One does not cancel out the other.
One does not make the other impossible.

I have made the logical decision that both aspects - His infinite awareness of the need for mercy and the finality of His toleration of sin and rebellion remain in place.

many ...
Cannot comprehend the gospel through a lack of faith or find it simply unbelievable and unconvincing

Retardation, mental illness, misrepresentation, early death, premature death, prolonged time for repentance, family backround, cultural backround, soundness of mental processes, generational curses do to occult involvement, etc. etc. ...

I believe present to God no obstacles for His wisdom to know how to dispense perfect judgment.

Revelation 20:10 I believe though thousands of details or even millions of details are not specifically elaborated upon in that verse:

" And if anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire." (Rev. 20:15)

I simply do not count the finality of this warning and the obvious need for infinite omniscience, ( infinite discrimination, infinite wisdom of all KINDS of extenuating circumstances, ) to be mutually exclusive.

I place no trust in man's ability to imagine a situational case which is too difficult for God to rule justly.

I think sooner or latter one has to come to grips with the realization that we are dealing with God. Sooner or latter one has to come to the realization that we are dealing with the Supreme Being.

Why not sooner rather than latter ?

Yes, while all have fallen short, and all have turned away and all works and effort is like filthy rags; perhaps you grouping people together as becoming "more and more just like Satan" as a construct for helping you rationalise the eternal torture of countless millions of people for all eternity, is not the best outcome of your particular interpretation of scripture.

Whether my theory is right or wrong, whether it appears to you useful or not at all, - No, I do not feel guilty for believing the New Testament. I may very well be wrong or propose something you consider weak. I don't know.

Regardless, I believe the New Testament there. A final polarization of those JUSTIFIED by God and those CONDEMNED by God will eventually conclude time and history. And then commences the age of eternity and the fulfillment of God's eternal purpose.

Originally posted by divegeester
How about this one to kick things off. Here we have those receiving the "mark of the beast" (and let's face it, who knows exactly what that is), being tormented for ever and ever while Jesus and his angels watch.

Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the w ...[text shortened]... r night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

It says that these enemies of God will be tormented "before the holy angels and before the Lamb".

I can have something occurring "before" me without me being incapable of other activities and giving attention to other things.

Your added effect is that Christ and His angels have nothing else to do forever but observe what is happening before them at that time.

perhaps you grouping people together as becoming "more and more just like Satan" as a construct for helping you rationalise the eternal torture of countless millions of people for all eternity, is not the best outcome of your particular interpretation of scripture.

Is there any ground to think that maybe the un-reconciled to God eventually become just like Satan ? Maybe.

Twice in chapter 16 such punishment seems not to sway the rebels a bit from the dubious "enjoyment" they derive from being dedicated to their leader Satan. This is dreadful and shows that they have finally become practically as immovable in sinning attitude as Satan himself. No ?

" And men were burned with great heat, and they blasphemed the name of God, who had the authority over these plagues, and they did not repent so as to give Him glory." (Rev. 16:9)

" And the fifth angel poured out his bowl upon the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became darkened; and they gnawed their tongues for pain

And blasphemed the God of heaven for their pains and for their sores, and they did not repent of their works." (v.11)

However, elsewhere we do see sinners repent during the great tribulation and acknowledge God.

" And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell; and seven thousand men were killed in the earthquake,

and the rest became terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven." (Rev. 11:13)

Some intractable followers of Satan seem to become exactly as stubborn of Satan.
For others in Revelation 11 they respond to God's warning judgments and rightly give glory to God Who judges.

He also saves through Jesus Christ.
We should not wait until the world is turned upside down to place God in His rightful place in our hearts, as Supreme.

Originally posted by divegeester
How about this one to kick things off. Here we have those receiving the "mark of the beast" (and let's face it, who knows exactly what that is), being tormented for ever and ever while Jesus and his angels watch.

Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the w ...[text shortened]... r night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Bump for FreakyKBH...

😉

Originally posted by divegeester
How about this one to kick things off. Here we have those receiving the "mark of the beast" (and let's face it, who knows exactly what that is), being tormented for ever and ever while Jesus and his angels watch.

Revelation 14:9-11
If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also will drink the w ...[text shortened]... r night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name.

Did you have a question?