The Book Of Revelation Effect

Originally posted by FMF
Authorship: no agreement on who even wrote it. The "vision": why should anyone believe claims about its authenticity? Was there a "vision" at all? Where's the corroboration? Where's the evidence that anything supernatural occurred? No credibility. No reason to accept it as genuine and no reason to accept any teaching based on it.

The content of the book ~ "t ...[text shortened]... Of Mormon is credible either. Or The Koran. I don't need to discuss the contents of them either.

The authorship and the contents are two separate issues. I find it rather intriguing how anyone could come to a conclusion with regard to a books 'bogus nature', without examining its contents, indeed its my contention that the biggest critics of religious books are those who never read them.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
The authorship and the contents are two separate issues. I find it rather intriguing how anyone could come to a conclusion with regard to a books 'bogus nature', without examining its contents, indeed its my contention that the biggest critics of religious books are those who never read them.

The contents are moot with the authorship issue making the book utterly non-credible. You are entitled to make what you want of the contents. I don't have a single reason to accept that the written out version of someone's "vision" is "divinely inspired". Do you believe that God spoke to Muhammad on the mountain and that the writings that resulted were divinely inspired? No. Neither do I. Same issue as far as I am concerned. You accept Revelation as being credible so you are better off discussing its content with fellow believers. If you'd caught me let's say twenty years ago, I'd have been interested. But not now.

Originally posted by FMF
The contents are moot with the authorship issue making the book utterly non-credible. You are entitled to make what you want of the contents. I don't have a single reason to accept that the written out version of someone's "vision" is "divinely inspired". Do you believe that God spoke to Muhammad on the mountain and that the writings that resulted were divinely ...[text shortened]... elievers. If you'd caught me let's say twenty years ago, I'd have been interested. But not now.

Whether Mohammed received a visit from an angel which dictated to him to write and the actual contents of those writings are separate issues FMF, for even if he did not receive a vision the teachings of the Koran still exist and must be examined if we are to say a single thing about the book itself. One cannot go around making truth claims without having examined the evidence, surely? To do so is to court prejudice and a weed like that would be devastating to ones garden, surely?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
...if [Muhammad] did not receive a vision the teachings of the Koran still exist and must be examined if we are to say a single thing about the book itself.

If Muhammad did not receive a vision from God, then the writings he produced are bogus because they claim to be divinely inspired after a trip up that mountain. Show me the "vision" (that's the basis of Revelation) actually happened. If you can't, then as far as I am concerned, there is no reason to discuss the content with you. Remember, I am not trying to persuade you that it is not credible. The content is a matter for you and your fellow believers.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
One cannot go around making truth claims without having examined the evidence, surely?

As far as I am concerned you CAN go around making truth claims about Revelation without offering credible evidence, because it is your prerogative and right.

Originally posted by FMF
If Muhammad did not receive a vision from God, then the writings he produced are bogus because they claim to be divinely inspired after a trip up that mountain. Show me the "vision" (that's the basis of Revelation) actually happened. If you can't, then as far as I am concerned, there is no reason to discuss the content with you. Remember, I am not trying to persuade you that it is not credible. The content is a matter for you and your fellow believers.

Dear FMF you have no way of knowing whether he (Muhammad) did or did not receive a vision, have you? All you can in fact do is examine the content of the book as to the veracity of the claim. Its the same with the book of Revelation, you have no actual way of knowing whether John was inspired to write it or not, all you have is the content of the book that he penned. I am in exactly the same position, all I can do is examine the contents of these works and make an evaluation with my mind, anything less is naught but prejudice and who would want a weed like that spoiling ones newly cut lawn.

Originally posted by FMF
As far as I am concerned you CAN go around making truth claims about Revelation without offering credible evidence, because it is your prerogative and right.

Yes it is possible but to make a claim about anything without having examined it is prejudice.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Dear FMF you have no way of knowing whether he (Muhammad) did or did not receive a vision, have you?

Do you believe he did have a vision from God and that his writing were divinely inspired?

Originally posted by FMF
Do you believe he did have a vision from God and that his writing were divinely inspired?

I have absolutely no way of knowing whether he had a vision from God and no after having examined the Koran I cannot say that I find any evidence for its claim of inspiration, Its a far too cold book book for that and contains Arabic cultural elements which severely calls into question its veracity. Muslim vision of heaven is ludicrous.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
Yes it is possible but to make a claim about anything without having examined it is prejudice.

I've read Revelation several times and in the two languages in which I am fluent. I have also listened to and read extracts from it and analysis of those extracts countless times. I've also read a couple of books about it. All to no avail, ultimately ~ although there was a time when I was taken in by it. But the content cannot be separated from the fact that the Book has no credibility. It claims to be the Word of God delivered through a "vision" and written down. I don't believe this to be true. I would be lying if I claimed I did.

Originally posted by FMF
I've read Revelation several times and in the two languages in which I am fluent. I have also listened to and read extracts from it and analysis of those extracts countless times. I've also read a couple of books about it. All to no avail, ultimately ~ although there was a time when I was taken in by it. But the content cannot be separated from the fact that the ...[text shortened]... "vision" and written down. I don't believe this to be true. I would be lying if I claimed I did.

I dont believe you are lying I just find it strange that anyone should not provide a single passage.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I have absolutely no way of knowing whether he had a vision from God and no after having examined the Koran I cannot say that I find any evidence for its claim of inspiration, Its a far too cold book book for that and contains Arabic cultural elements which severely calls into question its veracity. Muslim vision of heaven is ludicrous.

Well I don't think Muhammad had a vision from God. Same goes for the whoever-it-was who said he had a vision from God and then wrote Revelation. You can continue to speculate about Muhammad's vision and whether it happened. If you ever decide that you think that he did have a vision from God, you can start a thread about it. It would be interesting.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I dont believe you are lying I just find it strange that anyone should not provide a single passage.

Maybe a Christian will discuss the content with you. I laid it out in the OP. Remember in this thread I have been talking about people who don't accept it for what people claim it to be (and ultimately, the entire cannon too) and NOT trying to persuade you or anybody that you are wrong to believe it.

Originally posted by FMF
Well I don't think Muhammad had a vision from God. Same goes for the whoever-it-was who said he had a vision from God and then wrote Revelation. You can continue to speculate about Muhammad's vision and whether it happened. If you ever decide that you think that he did have a vision from God, you can start a thread about it. It would be interesting.

I'll take that as an admission of, 'I have no actual way of knowing whether he had a vision or not' 😀

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
I'll take that as an admission of, 'I have no actual way of knowing whether he had a vision or not' 😀

You need to show me that he did, robbie.