Striving to Be Good versus Belief in Magic

@suzianne said
I don't really give a damn what your original question was about, nor what audience you meant it for. I was asking about your reference to "RHP Christians". Clearly, you place them in another category from "other" Christians. I was merely asking you to qualify your stance. Well, what's clear is that you don't want to talk about it for some reason known only to you.

Co ...[text shortened]... d myself, and since I know you won't actually listen to me, I'm now done. Enjoy your white-washing.

The OP is only aimed at and about RHP Christians.

@suzianne said
Since all you want to do about this now is "double down" on your knee-jerk explanation, I'll leave you to it. I've explained myself, and since I know you won't actually listen to me, I'm now done. Enjoy your white-washing.

Feel free to read any of the countless hundreds [probably thousands] of posts of mine which are about Christians who are not on this forum.

@suzianne said
"None of us here are that good we can place ourselves above anyone else, we all need a Savior."

True. But let's not miss the fact that both players in this parable are Christian. Jesus is saying that the publican "gets" his message, while the Pharisee doesn't "get" it, and has gone as far as to act against those teachings, while still thinking that he is followin ...[text shortened]... the Christ better than the publican. These are the hypocritical Christians I often talk about here.

Neither of them was a Christian; they were believers In God, Christ had not died yet and sent the Holy Spirit.

@suzianne said
I don't really give a damn what your original question was about, nor what audience you meant it for.

Oh well. Unlike you, the original question, and the audience it's meant for, is what I am interested in.

@fmf said
Striving to be good versus belief in supernatural phenomena

Why is it that so many RHP Christians seem to talk about placing 'belief in supernatural phenomena' ahead of talking about 'walking the walk of life while striving to be good' at the very core of their Christian faith?

I think there's a difficulty with this. You've used the words: "Supernatural Phenomena" in your post and "Belief in Magic" in the thread title. However, I don't think that this is quite what is going on in Christianity. They claim the existence of a creator God and an angelic host but, except for the thirty odd years Christ walked the Earth, they exist on a different plane. There ought to be no expectation of direct physical intervention. Magic does not enter into the religion, its not expected to work. God's intervention is at the level of psychological support. There's no point in praying that the dishes will be done, one has to scrub. So, to my mind, an important question is to what extent does Christianity defend against magical thinking among it's adherents - how does Christianity prevent it's membership from thinking that one can achieve material objectives by prayer alone?

@deepthought said
Magic does not enter into the religion, its not expected to work. God's intervention is at the level of psychological support.

Several Christians here have spoken frequently and at length about how faith is only possible and comprehension of Jesus, God etc. if there is a supernatural transformation willed and initiated by God. This is an example of "magic".

@fmf said
Several Christians here have spoken frequently and at length about how faith is only possible and comprehension of Jesus, God etc. if there is a supernatural transformation willed and initiated by God. This is an example of "magic".

I was thinking at the level of the religion as a whole. I agree that some Christians seem to think that magic works. I've heard of people who believe that if one prays for a stereo God beneficently provides a stereo and other such material benefits. These were anecdotes and I can't be certain I wasn't being lied to, but this is not part of the Canon of any of the denominations which have been active in the UK for any historically significant time period.

My understanding is, and I can be mistaken, that in Islam the "Age of Miracles" ended at the time of the Prophet. So further miraculous events are not possible. This tends to block magical thinking among Muslims. So I wonder what the checks on magical thinking in Christianity are and how effective they are?

@deepthought said
I was thinking at the level of the religion as a whole. I agree that some Christians seem to think that magic works. I've heard of people who believe that if one prays for a stereo God beneficently provides a stereo and other such material benefits. These were anecdotes and I can't be certain I wasn't being lied to, but this is not part of the Canon of any of the denom ...[text shortened]... ms. So I wonder what the checks on magical thinking in Christianity are and how effective they are?

I don't call what God does magic, divine intervention as creator He has a right to do as He will with His own. I will also say that these things set God apart from the typical day to day; they declare that He was involved; all other explanations fall short or are illogical, which is why some of the events from creating everything out of nothing (Ex nihilo), or a virgin birth can only occur if the natural laws of this life are overruled by someone again that transcends them.

@deepthought said
I was thinking at the level of the religion as a whole. I agree that some Christians seem to think that magic works. I've heard of people who believe that if one prays for a stereo God beneficently provides a stereo and other such material benefits. These were anecdotes and I can't be certain I wasn't being lied to, but this is not part of the Canon of any of the denom ...[text shortened]... ms. So I wonder what the checks on magical thinking in Christianity are and how effective they are?

If you've never come across the whole "indwelling Holy Spirit" magic thing, then I don't see how you can be a commentator on Christianity.

@fmf said
If you've never come across the whole "indwelling Holy Spirit" magic thing, then I don't see how you can be a commentator on Christianity.

I'm not certain what you mean by that. What I take Biblical references to "the Spirit of the Lord was upon them" to mean is something along the lines of internal religious ecstacy rather than evidence of anything magical in the sense of breaking physical laws in the way scientific instrumentation can detect. I don't see this as being in the same category as magical thinking. Magical thinking would be to expect thought to have physical effects in the world without the thinker taking any other action.

From a rationalistic point of view praying for good health might be expected to work by some sort of placebo mechanism, praying for fortitude through a crisis is also liable to be helpful at a psychological level. There is a neurological explanation for, or at least description of, religious ecstacy. Since I can't think of any entirely satisfactory argument against the existence of a creator god I do not regard the core beliefs of any particular religion, and Christianity in particular, as being indicative of magical thinking.

From a theistic point of view, again I'll restrict this to Christianity, the phenomena I've talked about might involve divine intervention, or at least some level of communication even if only one way. A state of religious ecstacy induced by God might be detectable by fMRI, but this is not distinguishable to the operator of the fMRI machine from such a state induced by the subject themselves. What I'm trying to express is that I don't think that there is a strong contradiction between Christianity and rationalism, and I don't think that magical thinking is a necessary part of Christianity. What I'm wondering about is what defences the religion has against it, because magical thinking is a road to nowhere as far as making one's way in the world. Essentially it's harmful as it produces a barrier against making real progress.

@deepthought said
I'm not certain what you mean by that. What I take Biblical references to "the Spirit of the Lord was upon them" to mean is something along the lines of internal religious ecstacy rather than evidence of anything magical in the sense of breaking physical laws in the way scientific instrumentation can detect.

Then you and I have not read the same posts by those RHP Christians here who talk about the supernatural change that occurs in them as believers once they have "the indwelling Holy Spirit". Just "internal religious ecstasy"? I don't think so.

@kellyjay said
Neither of them was a Christian; they were believers In God, Christ had not died yet and sent the Holy Spirit.

This is as may be, however, Jesus mostly concerned himself with a correct behavior for his followers.

The parable's purpose is "Don't be like this guy (the Pharisee)." Christianity has always had this problem, some thinking themselves above others. Maybe today, a minister or pastor might present a sermon entitled "Don't be a hypocritical Christian", and still present this parable as an example of what he is talking about. This came from the mouth of Jesus, and so it was meant for those who would follow him.

@suzianne said
This is as may be, however, Jesus mostly concerned himself with a correct behavior for his followers.

The parable's purpose is "Don't be like this guy (the Pharisee)." Christianity has always had this problem, some thinking themselves above others. Maybe today, a minister or pastor might present a sermon entitled "Don't be a hypocritical Christian", and still present th ...[text shortened]... lking about. This came from the mouth of Jesus, and so it was meant for those who would follow him.

I agree; one was thanking God for who he was, and if I'm not mistaken he used the word "I" around five times as he was patting himself on the back and comparing himself to others. While the humble man knew he was a sinner before God and asked for his mercy and received it. If they were both Christian they would have both known they were both sinners in need of grace before this occurred.

@deepthought said
I'm not certain what you mean by that. What I take Biblical references to "the Spirit of the Lord was upon them" to mean is something along the lines of internal religious ecstacy rather than evidence of anything magical in the sense of breaking physical laws in the way scientific instrumentation can detect. I don't see this as being in the same category as magical thin ...[text shortened]... s way in the world. Essentially it's harmful as it produces a barrier against making real progress.

The Holy Spirit is a person, not a mental reaction of some sort like joy or religious ecstasy.

@kellyjay said
The Holy Spirit is a person, not a mental reaction of some sort like joy or religious ecstasy.

I'm not seeing a contradiction. If the "Holy Spirit is indwelling" then communication with that entity [1] must involve religious ecstasy - otherwise how can you distinguish between that and talking to yourself.

[1] I was stuck for a personal pronoun there.