@kellyjay said
God will judge us by the light we have. This is why the gospel is so important!

So although an atheist, the little old lady could have enough light anyway to be saved?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
So although an atheist, the little old lady could have enough light anyway to be saved?

If she lived it, do you know anyone who has without fail? We are as a people condemned already which is why we need salvation!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
So although an atheist, the little old lady could have enough light anyway to be saved?

The need to be saved is due to failure, living a good enough life doesn’t require salvation.

@kellyjay said
It is difficult to grasp the evil in the world when good is called evil, and evil is called good.

You missed - or willfully ignored - my point entirely.
Sure, the evil in the world is terrible.

But (and admit it if you’re honest) the Lifeguard has the power to save people even against their will. Haven’t you heard about the New Covenant where He will “put his laws in their hearts” WITHOUT them asking? Sovereignly?

@caljust said
You missed - or willfully ignored - my point entirely.
Sure, the evil in the world is terrible.

But (and admit it if you’re honest) the Lifeguard has the power to save people even against their will. Haven’t you heard about the New Covenant where He will “put his laws in their hearts” WITHOUT them asking? Sovereignly?

The life guard could have been a beach, a rock, a lifeboat or anything else! It wasn’t that they couldn’t be saved, it was that if they missed being saved, the water would kill them inspite of help being there. So sin not the savior would be the death of anyone outside of Christ.

@kellyjay said
The life guard could have been a beach, a rock, a lifeboat or anything else! It wasn’t that they couldn’t be saved, it was that if they missed being saved, the water would kill them inspite of help being there. So sin not the savior would be the death of anyone outside of Christ.

Dunno KellyJay, if you ask me, you're sidestepping the essence of what CalJust is putting to you.

"The lifeguard could have been ..." and then you list three inanimate objects?

Jesus is analogized as a "lifeguard" [by you, incidentally] but then, to avoid CalJust's point, you analogize Jesus/lifeguard as a non-sentient beach/rock/lifeboat?

That's quite the brazen little rhetorical shimmy you've made there, if you ask me.

@kellyjay said
The need to be saved is due to failure, living a good enough life doesn’t require salvation.

WHAT??

Could you read again what you wrote here and explain to me why you think this? It's against most of your writing here.

So now peole can be "good enough" without Jesus?

@suzianne said
So now peole can be "good enough" without Jesus?

As you well know, KellyJay believes the exact opposite of this. He has merely expressed himself poorly.

@fmf said
Dunno KellyJay, if you ask me, you're sidestepping the essence of what CalJust is putting to you.

"The lifeguard could have been ..." and then you list three inanimate objects?

Jesus is analogized as a "lifeguard" [by you, incidentally] but then, to avoid CalJust's point, you analogize Jesus/lifeguard as a non-sentient beach/rock/lifeboat?

That's quite the brazen little rhetorical shimmy you've made there, if you ask me.

I didn't ask you.
He responded to a point I was making about the sin killing people not their beliefs.

@suzianne said
WHAT??

Could you read again what you wrote here and explain to me why you think this? It's against most of your writing here.

So now peole can be "good enough" without Jesus?

If you lead a good life that didn't have sin in it you would not require a savior.
Salvation is only needed if someone has a need to be saved.
The little ole lady example that was brought had her living her life her way, but if
she had sin in her life it would be her sin that required Jesus. Sin is going to be
dealt with either through God's justice or mercy we choose when God calls us.
No one is going to be forced into it, but all will live out eternity in the
consequences of our choices and deeds.

@kellyjay said
He responded to a point I was making about the sin killing people not their beliefs.

No, I responded to you claiming (and this is YOUR analogy, not mine) that a lifeguard COULD NOT save a person unless that person ASKED TO BE SAVED and was WILLING.

I pointed out that this is patently false, even on human terms. And in spiritual terms it is equally false, because there are numerous scriptures where God says that he will save his people WITHOUT them needing to ask, but as a sovereign act of His own will.

That, btw, is the definition of Grace.

@caljust said
No, I responded to you claiming (and this is YOUR analogy, not mine) that a lifeguard COULD NOT save a person unless that person ASKED TO BE SAVED and was WILLING.

I pointed out that this is patently false, even on human terms. And in spiritual terms it is equally false, because there are numerous scriptures where God says that he will save his people WITHOUT them needing to ask, but as a sovereign act of His own will.

That, btw, is the definition of Grace.

If you miss the life guard it is the water you are in you will drown in. You are right it was my analogy. and you changing it to make it something I was not addressing is not anything I am concerned about. You want to add to it to say something else go for it!

@kellyjay said
You are right it was my analogy. and you changing it to make it something I was not addressing is not anything I am concerned about.

Why are you analogizing Jesus with inanimate objects?

@caljust said
You missed - or willfully ignored - my point entirely.
Sure, the evil in the world is terrible.

But (and admit it if you’re honest) the Lifeguard has the power to save people even against their will. Haven’t you heard about the New Covenant where He will “put his laws in their hearts” WITHOUT them asking? Sovereignly?

It isn't a good analysis because what Kelly Jay and I would say is that the important thing is that someone is willing[ and that is the true character that manifests itself from within, right?

God does not interfere with the free will of people, right.

So, it is asking people to sincerely repent... and if they refuse to repent, that is upon them.

Basically, God is asking people to be sincere in repentance.

Can you make someone be sincere for an apology without altering their fundamental will -- a will that it is their right to?

That is the better parallel.

@kellyjay said
If you lead a good life that didn't have sin in it you would not require a savior.
Salvation is only needed if someone has a need to be saved.
The little ole lady example that was brought had her living her life her way, but if
she had sin in her life it would be her sin that required Jesus. Sin is going to be
dealt with either through God's justice or mercy we choose wh ...[text shortened]... to be forced into it, but all will live out eternity in the
consequences of our choices and deeds.

Do you think anyone today can live a "sin-free" life?