St. Silouan on Forgiveness

@divegeester said
@Philokalia

An interesting point on this part of your quote:

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what they do.’

Two important questions for you trinitarian hellers then:

1)Do you think the Father granted the son’s request?
1a) If not, why not?

and

2) if so ... were those prayed for granted a pardon from being burnt alive in Hell for eternity?

Avoided so far by:

KellyJay
Sonship
Philokalia

@philokalia said
Our forgiveness is unconditional because we are not in the position of God to know people's hearts nor to know the future, and we do not benefit from pretending that we can aspire to the role of judging others.

As we have stated elsewhere: God forgives all who ask for forgiveness, but those who are in a state of pride and do not ask for it are not given it.

This jives very well with the one major sin of Satan at the beginning: the sin of pride.

Kelly asked, why would God forgive people who continue to sin.

My point: how is this question logical if forgiveness is unconditional? If God's forgiveness is dependent upon us not continuing to sin then his forgiveness is not without conditions.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Kelly asked, why would God forgive people who continue to sin.

My point: how is this question logical if forgiveness is unconditional? If God's forgiveness is dependent upon us not continuing to sin then his forgiveness is not without conditions.

Now we are in territory where extremely careful wording must be used, right...

So here is what a careful statement issued by the Antiochian Orthodox church says in terms of the conditions of forgiveness:

When someone who offends God or us they must repent. God, and we in imitation of Him, should embrace the repentant sinner with God's own love, in order to forgive him. We have to pray that we or anyone who has offended us or God, be reconciled to God and to us through His Church. The foundation of this repentance is a sense of his unfaithfulness to God and offense to us, contrition of heart, and determination to amend and have a metanoia, a fundamental change of mind and heart so as not to offend again.

It is more specific yet provides more room in other ways.

This is really, really tricky territory if someone says "why this, and not that?" so if such questions are brought up I am not sure if I can give the best answer as some topic as important and deep as repentance can probably only be handled by trained theologians when such questions are broguht up.

So if there is anything more on this... I ahve to fully add the caveat that I am just trying and am not qualified.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Kelly asked, why would God forgive people who continue to sin.

My point: how is this question logical if forgiveness is unconditional? If God's forgiveness is dependent upon us not continuing to sin then his forgiveness is not without conditions.

It is more than that!

Forgiveness isn't just being left off the hook for crimes done, sins, it is a restoration of relationship with God. Our forgiveness is so that this relationship can be restored putting us in right fellowship with God, it isn't just so we are off the hook for sins so that we may continue in our lives away from God and God's Kingdom. There are conditions once we get it, as in sharing forgiveness to others as God has done for us, we must also let others off the hook for things done to us, no matter what for example.

If you want nothing to do with God yet forgiven there is nothing for you for that, the forgiveness is for all of us so we can come back to God. The curtain of the temple was torn in two, from top to bottom, heaven to earth when Christ died so there is now nothing between us and God, we don't need a priest making a sacrifice for us Christ is our sacrifice.

If you want nothing to do with God you are outside of God's Kingdom, you are outside of a right relationship with God who is Good, Righteous, Just, Holy, and Love. Standing before Him there will be no witnesses for the defense or prosecution it will be you and Jesus as your life in total will be revealed for all that it was, right in front of Him, in front of everyone else as their lives will be too. If you are not pure before your eyes and His, justice will be done. Justice and mercy are both at play here, justice is demanded for evil and wickedness, mercy is what God offers, not because we worthy, being dead in our sins there is nothing we can do to be worthy of it. An eternal Kingdom is about to be revealed those who prefer evil and wickedness will not enter.

@kellyjay said
An eternal Kingdom is about to be revealed those who prefer evil and wickedness will not enter.

What of the old lady who has always tried to be good and help others. Although a non-believer, she in no way can be said to prefer evil and wickedness and indeed has confronted such things her whole life. Will she be denied entry to the eternal Kingdom, solely for her disbelief in God? (What if she had only bad experiences of religion, perhaps being persecuted and damaged by her encounters with people of faith? )

There is an inherent danger Kelly in equating disbelief with God with a preference for wickedness and sin. People are much more complicated than that.

@philokalia said
Now we are in territory where extremely careful wording must be used, right...

So here is what a careful statement issued by the Antiochian Orthodox church says in terms of the conditions of forgiveness:

[quote]When someone who offends God or us they must repent. God, and we in imitation of Him, should embrace the repentant sinner with God's own love, in order to f ...[text shortened]... ng more on this... I ahve to fully add the caveat that I am just trying and am not qualified.

Antiochian Orthodox church says:

When someone who offends God or us they must repent. God, and we in imitation of Him, should embrace the repentant sinner with God's own love, in order to forgive him. We have to pray that we or anyone who has offended us or God, be reconciled to God and to us through His Church. The foundation of this repentance is a sense of his unfaithfulness to God and offense to us, contrition of heart, and determination to amend and have a metanoia, a fundamental change of mind and heart so as not to offend again.

Utilitarian's say:

'To deserve forgiveness, a person who does wrong must recognize and acknowledge the wrong they have done; must express contrition and a sincere desire not to repeat that act; and must express willingness to make restitution as far as it is possible. If any of these conditions are not met, then forgiveness is not merited.

Are these a million miles apart do you think?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
What of the old lady who has always tried to be good and help others. Although a non-believer, she in no way can be said to prefer evil and wickedness and indeed has confronted such things her whole life. Will she be denied entry to the eternal Kingdom, solely for her disbelief in God? (What if she had only bad experiences of religion, perhaps being persecuted and dam ...[text shortened]... elief with God with a preference for wickedness and sin. People are much more complicated than that.

The little old lady and the Nazi war criminal are no different both need God’s forgiveness, Jesus is the only way for that. By the only way I am not suggesting He is showing us the way, He is the Way.

@kellyjay said
The little old lady and the Nazi war criminal are no different both need God’s forgiveness, Jesus is the only way for that. By the only way I am not suggesting He is showing us the way, He is the Way.

Ouch.

'The little old lady and the Nazi war criminal are no different both need God’s forgiveness...'

I'm going to let that sit there a while before I respond so we both have the opportunity to really ponder on your chosen words.

@divegeester said

An interesting point on this part of your quote:

“Christ prayed for those that crucified Him: ‘Father, count not this sin against them; they know not what they do.’


Two important questions for you trinitarian hellers then:

1)Do you think the Father granted the son’s request?
1a) If not, why not?

and

2) if so ... were those prayed for granted a pardon from being burnt alive in Hell for eternity?

My answers:

(1) Yes
(2). Yes

But I would like to leave the entire religious bit aside for now (i.e. "sinning" against God etc) and purely look at the human interaction level.

I like the analogy of Mr X killing Mr Y's brother. Why should Mr Y forgive Mr X, and under what conditions?

It is my contention that Mr Y SHOULD forgive, and purely for his own (Mr Y's) sake.

Somebody said once that unforgiveness is like you drinking a slow poison and hoping the offender gets sick.

Even if there is not a smidgin of remorse in Mr X, Mr Y should still forgive, merely to rid himself of the possibility of festering hate, increased blood pressure and an early death. Forgiveness releases him to move on with his life.

Foregiveness, it must be emphasised, in no way justifies the wrong done, nor does it pretend it never happened.

Another definition of forgiveness that I like: "I give up the right to hurt you back." Therein lies freedom.

Just saying....

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Ouch.

'The little old lady and the Nazi war criminal are no different both need God’s forgiveness...'

I'm going to let that sit there a while before I respond so we both have the opportunity to really ponder on your chosen words.

All have sinned the best of us to the worse. If you are interested I can show you a talk about Nazi war criminals coming to Christ for forgiveness. It was done by the same man that spoke about the Trinity I posted.

@kellyjay said
All have sinned the best of us to the worse. If you are interested I can show you a talk about Nazi war criminals coming to Christ for forgiveness. It was done by the same man that spoke about the Trinity I posted.

So to clarify Kelly, the little old lady that has spent her life trying to help people but lacks belief in God due to negative experiences of religion, is in the same pot as the Nazi war criminal and needs divine forgiveness for these negative experiences leading her to disbelieve God exists. (In other words, it's her fault). Her disbelief makes her the equivalent of the Nazi chap? Indeed, if your Nazi criminal comes to Christ for forgiveness and the old lady doesn't, he alone will be saved?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
So to clarify Kelly, the little old lady that has spent her life trying to help people but lacks belief in God due to negative experiences of religion, is in the same pot as the Nazi war criminal and needs divine forgiveness for these negative experiences leading her to disbelieve God exists. (In other words, it's her fault). Her disbelief makes her the equivalent of ...[text shortened]... your Nazi criminal comes to Christ for forgiveness and the old lady doesn't, he alone will be saved?

If everyone is a sinner that has fallen short, then the best of us are not good enough, neither the worst. So that is not part of the equation, none of us would make it.

@kellyjay said
If everyone is a sinner that has fallen short, then the best of us are not good enough, neither the worst. So that is not part of the equation, none of us would make it.

So you and Nazi war criminals will "make it" if they are 'right with God' but "the little old lady that has spent her life trying to help people" won't "make it" if she's not 'right with God' [by which you mean if she doesn't believe in Jesus and hasn't said sorry to Him, right?]

@fmf said
So you and Nazi war criminals will "make it" if they are 'right with God' but "the little old lady that has spent her life trying to help people" won't "make it" if she's not 'right with God' [by which you mean if she doesn't believe in Jesus and hasn't said sorry to Him, right?]

No that would be like saying the water didn’t drown you the life guard did because you missed him.

@kellyjay said
No that would be like saying the water didn’t drown you the life guard did because you missed him.

"No"? So you and Nazi war criminals will NOT "make it" if you are 'right with God'? But "the little old lady that has spent her life trying to help people" WILL "make it" if she's not 'right with God'? Are you sure you meant "no"?