Spiritual Yard Sale

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
yes FMF what version do you venerate?

Veneration is for religionists.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
So I take it from your reply you think people who stop believing in christ due to mental health issues also never really had a relationship with christ in the first place?

I guess this also means that people with mental disabilities that stop them from understanding religion or the concept of god do not have a relationship with jesus.

Shall I pop ...[text shortened]... but im not 100% sure. Anybody who says they are 100% sure god exists are either lying or stupid.

You've missed the point completely, there is nothing under Heaven and Earth
that can separate us from God. Those that belong to God know this, it does
not mean they will not go through trials that will test that. A person in the
midst of a struggle isn't alone in that struggle, that knows God as their Savior.
Those that do not are on their own until they reach out to God. Your acting like
bad times means that God is gone or not available to us, which is far from the
truth.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
You've missed the point completely, there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God.

Well if we stop believing in a certain set of religious tenets then the 'separation' you mention is of course possible, as I have made clear. When you say "there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God" you are just talking about how you yourself feel now. You are not really talking about anyone else other than yourself.

Originally posted by FMF
Well if we stop believing in a certain set of religious tenets then the 'separation' you mention is of course possible, as I have made clear. When you say "there is nothing under Heaven and Earth that can separate us from God" you are just talking about how you yourself feel now. You are not really talking about anyone else other than yourself.

No, I'm talking about a faithful God who promised never to leave us or forsake us.
I think you'd known that if you ever actually knew Him.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
No, I'm talking about a faithful God who promised never to leave us or forsake us.
I think you'd known that if you ever actually knew Him.

I did believe I knew him. Just as you believe you know him. You still believe you know him. I do not. I have made this clear.

Originally posted by FMF
I did believe I knew him. Just as you believe you know him. You still believe you know him. I do not. I have made this clear.

Well the God I know is faithful in this life, if the one you knew wasn't than you
never knew the God I know.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well the God I know is faithful in this life, if the one you knew wasn't than you
never knew the God I know.
Kelly

if it's a personal relationship, no one else will know that god you think you know.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
if it's a personal relationship, no one else will know that god you think you know.

It is a personal relationship with the same God, and God's traits are quite plain,
two of which are that He is faithful and true. So when someone says they knew
Him and didn't find Him faithful and true than whatever god they claimed they
knew is not the same one I know and has made Himself availble to all.
Kelly

Originally posted by KellyJay
Well the God I know is faithful in this life, if the one you knew wasn't than you never knew the God I know.

So you keep saying. You keep talking about yourself under the guise of talking about me. We get it; you don't think you are ever going to lose your faith.

Originally posted by KellyJay
So when someone says they knew Him and didn't find Him faithful and true than whatever god they claimed they knew is not the same one I know and has made Himself availble to all.

I have said nothing about "not finding him faithful and true". Therefore your assertions about what I did believe and did not believe, in terms of this, have no traction or relevance. You need to stop talking indirectly about how strong you think your faith is. How strong you personally think your own faith is now has absolutely nothing to do with what my faith used to be. My loss of faith and the faith you currently have are unrelated topics - or, least, not related in the way you are trying to make out.

Originally posted by stellspalfie
His argument doesnt contradict and is perfectly logical. The problem lies with the irrational belief that god is 100% real. Your view point only has any credence if god defiantly exists, as not one person on the planet is 100% sure, your argument falls down. If you think you know for a fact that god exists then you are throwing logic out of the window a ...[text shortened]... ing other peoples logic. Remember you only 'think' god exists, you do not 'know' god exists.

Your argument falls down the instant you assert that it is I who made a claim. FMF said he had a relationship with God. This cannot be true if God does not exist. Therefore, FMF was actually claiming that God exists.

Anyway, I think we are beyond that now, since I see FMF saying he believed he had a relationship with God just as we Christians believe we have a relationship with God.

That is a much more logical way of putting it. In fact, I don't have a problem with that statement at all, other than I just disagree with it. FMF disagrees that I have a relationship with God, under the assertion that God doesn't exist. I believe I do have a relationship with God, under the assertion that God does exist.

Most arguments boil down to the same thing.

Originally posted by sumydid
Your argument falls down the instant you assert that it is I who made a claim. FMF said he had a relationship with God. This cannot be true if God does not exist. Therefore, FMF was actually claiming that God exists.

Of course I used to claim that the Christian version of God exists. That has been central to this discussion all along. I had a "relationship" based on the belief - the certainty - that I felt at that time.

Originally posted by sumydid
Anyway, I think we are beyond that now, since I see FMF saying he believed he had a relationship with God just as we Christians believe we have a relationship with God. That is a much more logical way of putting it. .

This has been what I have contended all along. Twenty years ago, my relationship/belief/certainty would have been more or less what yours and KellyJay's STILL is; but, of course, mine no longer is.

Originally posted by sumydid
FMF disagrees that I have a relationship with God, under the assertion that God doesn't exist.

I have not asserted that God does not exist. Have you been following this discussion at all? I have said that I do not think God has revealed himself to people like you and KellyJay [I used to think he had], and that neither of you know what 'God's instructions' are.

Originally posted by FMF
This has been what I have contended all along. Twenty years ago, my relationship/belief/certainty would have been more or less what yours and KellyJay's STILL is; but, of course, mine no longer is.

Ok, well, I obviously disagree and neither one of us can prove each other wrong.

I believe you were never Christian in the first place, else you would have had a faith you couldn't walk away from. But I can't prove it. So onward we go.

I thought of you today. I heard that the Muslims in the US are forming a coalition to have the 1st Amendmant revised, so that religion cannot be insulted.

I thought to myself, "Now there is a cause that both FMF and I would stand against." Am I right?