Spiritual Yard Sale

Originally posted by sumydid
Kelly is trying to argue a logical truth; one cannot logically argue to have known something they claim never was.

I disagree. What KellyJay appears to be arguing is that one cannot stop believing something, or that if one stops believing something that somehow did not believe it before one stopped, which - in terms of "logical truth" - seems to me to sheer nonsense.

Originally posted by VoidSpirit
you're on to something there, you just need to take it to its logical conclusion:

claiming to have a relationship with jesus is the same as claiming to have a relationship with zeus.

As far as you are concerned, there definitely is no separation. I get that. From my perspective, your "logical conclusion" is an exercise in complete ignorance. And I don't mean that as an insult. You just don't have a clue about the experiences that have shaped my beliefs, and so you are left with nothing more than guesses and assumptions.

Just because you have not experienced what someone else claims to have experienced, that doesn't mean their claim is false. Only a complete narcissist would conclude such a thing.

Originally posted by FMF
I disagree. What KellyJay appears to be arguing is that one cannot stop believing something, or that if one stops believing something that somehow did not believe it before one stopped, which - in terms of "logical truth" - seems to me to sheer nonsense.

That goes back to you (in my opinion) not understanding what Kelly or any other believer really means when we talk about "knowing" Christ. Knowing Christ isn't just merely believing.

I *believe* there is life on other planets. But that's where it stops. On the other hand, I have a personal relationship with the Son of the Living God. I have faith in His promises as stated in the bible, and I have had powerful, very personal experiences that completely support my faith and belief, to the point where I know Christ is who He said He is. And I will not, and could not, decide to believe otherwise.

Originally posted by sumydid
Just because you have not experienced what someone else claims to have experienced, that doesn't mean their claim is false. Only a complete narcissist would conclude such a thing.

You should listen to your own advice. Just because you have not experienced an erosion or dissolution of your faith, doesn't mean the claims of other people who have experienced it are false.

Originally posted by sumydid
That goes back to you (in my opinion) not understanding what Kelly or any other believer really means when we talk about "knowing" Christ. Knowing Christ isn't just merely believing.

On the contrary, I do understand what KellyJay "really means" about "knowing" Christ because I did too.

Originally posted by FMF
On the contrary, I do understand what KellyJay "really means" about "knowing" Christ because I did too.

Knowing that you are very smart, which is obvious; I am baffled by the fact that you don't see the logical fallacy in claiming to have had a relationship with a being you don't believe in.

Originally posted by sumydid
As far as you are concerned, there definitely is no separation. I get that. From my perspective, your "logical conclusion" is an exercise in complete ignorance.

And I don't mean that as an insult. You just don't have a clue about the experiences that have shaped my beliefs, and so you are left with nothing more than guesses and assumptions.

Just be ...[text shortened]... doesn't mean their claim is false. Only a complete narcissist would conclude such a thing.[/b]

and that's an ignorant claim, clearly made by someone who doesn't understand human psychology.

humans form relationships with other humans and also with inanimate objects and fictional characters. sometimes these relationships are helpful, sometimes they are harmful.

forming a relationship with jesus is exactly the same as the tendency of some children to form relationships with invisible friends. jesus is your invisible friend. you may need him psychologically to help you cope, or as another christian poster here put it, to be able to get through the day and make life worth living.

it is not unusual for the person with that imaginary friend to grow out of the phase. they can learn to cope on their own and come to realize the close friend they knew and loved was imaginary after all.

other people's claims don't concern me much. anyone can make any claims they with. i only respect what they can demonstrate. in the universe of your mind, you may have the need of an imaginary friend. but realize that it is possible for you to one day grow out of that need, or you may find yourself switching allegiance to another imaginary being. it happens all the time to many people.

Originally posted by sumydid
Knowing that you are very smart, which is obvious; I am baffled by the fact that you don't see the logical fallacy in claiming to have had a relationship with a being you don't believe in.

that's because there is no logical fallacy. there is only ignorance on your part in understanding human psychology.

Originally posted by sumydid
I have a personal relationship with the Son of the Living God. I have faith in His promises as stated in the bible, and I have had powerful, very personal experiences that completely support my faith and belief, to the point where I know Christ is who He said He is. And I will not, and could not, decide to believe otherwise.

Hang on. I am not asking you to "decide to believe otherwise". You have got the wrong end of the stick. I am not proselytising here in any manner, shape or form.

Like you, I too had powerful and personal experiences that supported my faith and belief. But I do not subscribe to those beliefs anymore. It doesn't make any sense to assert that I somehow didn't have powerful and personal experiences that supported my faith and belief, or that I somehow did not "know" what/who I "knew" or did not believe what I believed.

You say " I know Christ is who He said He is. And I will not, and could not, decide to believe otherwise." Back when I was a Christian I probably would have said more or less the same thing. But I don't say it now because I don't belief that stuff anymore.

Originally posted by sumydid
Knowing that you are very smart, which is obvious; I am baffled by the fact that you don't see the logical fallacy in claiming to have had a relationship with a being you don't believe in.

I don't believe in it now. I did believe in it then. No logical fallacy here, sumydid.

Originally posted by FMF
I don't believe in it now. I did believe in it then. No logical fallacy here, sumydid.

Nope. But what you seemingly refuse to understand is, "believing in" and "knowing" are two completely different things.

Christ said that even the demons believe, and shudder.

"Knowing" implies a personal relationship, among other things.

What is the context of "knowing" when Christ said, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me...' " He certainly isn't saying He never believed they existed. He is talking about the lack of a personal, loving relationship.

Like I said before, I *believe* life on other planets exists. That's a far cry from having any kind of relationship with those lifeforms.

Originally posted by sumydid
Nope. But what you seemingly refuse to understand is, "believing in" and "knowing" are two completely different things.

OK. I don't "know" him now, as my beliefs have changed. I did "know" him then, presumably in more or less the same way as you and KellyJay believe you "know" him now. No logical fallacy here.

Originally posted by sumydid
Like I said before, I *believe* life on other planets exists. That's a far cry from having any kind of relationship with those lifeforms.

Offering a poor analogy that is a far cry from what we're talking about and then telling it's a far cry from what we are talking about, is not going to work with me.

Originally posted by sumydid
What is the context of "knowing" when Christ said, "And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you. Depart from me...' " He certainly isn't saying He never believed they existed. He is talking about the lack of a personal, loving relationship.

Some literature saying that Jesus says he "never knew" me does not work on me, either, because I don't subscribe to the beliefs that make this pronouncement significant to Christians.

Originally posted by Proper Knob
You also said this -

My concern is dealing with facts and empirical evidence. It has been asserted that we claim inspiration, to date there has not been a single citation which has substantiated that claim. I have produced numerous references, printed from the very beginning of Jehovahs witnesses throughout its modern history in the pages of t ...[text shortened]... tower are inspired.

That doesn't sound like someone who thinks they could be wrong.

then clearly i am correct, our official stance is that its not considered inspired, but so what?