"Sheol"

Originally posted by checkbaiter
I think you should reword your comments to "your understanding" of these scriptures are so and so. That would be more accurate.🙂

That applies to everybody and I take it for granted. When you write anything I automatically assume that you are posting comments that you understand and believe to be correct interpretation of scriptures. Im sure you do the same for me.

Originally posted by Rajk999
That applies to everybody and I take it for granted. When you write anything I automatically assume that you are posting comments that you understand and believe to be correct interpretation of scriptures. Im sure you do the same for me.

yes.

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
Originally posted by checkbaiter
"I'm sorry GB but this is so out of whack for me that I don't know where to begin. It would take me days to respond properly.
So I think, I pass."

checkbaiter, fine; doing so is an option. However, this original post provides no less than thirty nine (39) relevant passages of the Word of God which reveal and ...[text shortened]... you are also as omniscient as God Himself and know all the knowable since eternity past already.

In my opinion, this is more accurate than what you claim...

3.2 Do the dead have consciousness and knowledge?

Another claim of tradition is that after death, the dead continue living, having full knowledge and consciousness and helping the living ones. Again, from what God told us so that we may no longer be ignorant it is obvious that a claim like this cannot be right. Really, according to what we saw, the dead are not alive now which in turn means that they cannot do things that can be assigned to and characterize the living ones only. Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 9 truly leaves no space for any different opinion. Thus there we read:

Ecclesiastes 9:4-6, 9
"But for him who is joined to all the living there is hope, for a living dog is better than a dead lion. For the living KNOW that they will die; BUT THE DEAD KNOW NOTHING, and they have no more reward, for the memory of them is forgotten. Also their love, their hatred, and their envy have now perished; NEVERMORE WILL THEY HAVE A SHARE IN ANYTHING DONE UNDER THE SUN. ....... Whatever your hand finds top do, do it with your might FOR THERE IS NO WORK OR DEVICE OR KNOWLEDGE OR WISDOM IN THE GRAVE (Sheol) WHERE YOU ARE GOING."

As it is obvious from this passage, the dead are not conscious, and "nevermore will they have a share in anything done under the sun" i.e. in anything done in life. This not only refutes the claim of consciousness and knowledge after death but it also refutes the claim of many denominations that "holy" dead men appeared to other "holy" men and spoke to them, or that such persons as Mary hear and answer prayers. As we saw, according to the Bible, with the exception of the raised Christ there is no man that died and is alive now. Thus there is no dead that can appear to alive people or hear and answer prayers for, being dead, he has no consciousness and cannot "have a share in anything done under the sun."
3.3 Do the dead praise God?

Another claim of tradition regarding the dead, is that when one dies he goes to heaven where he praises God. Though from the examination of the information that God gave us so that we may be informed and not ignorant, it is obvious that this claim is again false, as the dead are neither in heaven nor they are alive so that they can praise, the Word answers this claim directly as well. Thus Psalms 6:5 tells us:

Psalms 6:5
"For in death there is no remembrance of You [God]. In the grave [Sheol] who shall give you thanks?"

Contrary to the tradition's ideas, the Word makes clear that "in death there is NO remembrance" of God. In Sheol, the gravedom, no one will give Him thanks for no one is alive there so that he can do that. In contrast, it is the LIVING and only they that will praise God and give Him thanks. Really, Isaiah 38:18-19 tells us:

Isaiah 38:18-19
"For SHEOL CANNOT THANK YOU [God], DEATH CANNOT PRAISE YOU; Those who go down to the pit cannot hope for Your truth. THE LIVING, THE LIVING MAN, HE SHALL PRAISE YOU...."

It is the living and not the dead that will thank and glorify God. It is now that we will thank Him and praise Him and not when we will die.
3.4 Is death a friend sent by God?

In addition to the above, another claim of tradition is that death is a friend sent by God to bring us nearer to Him. Again, what we have seen in parts 1 and 2, is enough to show that this claim is again false. Really, if death was a friend sent by God then there would be no reason for God to cancel its effects with the resurrection. This shows that death cannot be a friend, as tradition supports. Really, in I Corinthians 15:26 we read:

I Corinthians 15:26
"The last ENEMY that will be destroyed is death"

Death is not a friend, as many present it, but an enemy and as such it will be destroyed5. From this we can additionally conclude that death being an enemy that God will destroy, cannot have God as originator. Who is then the real originator of death? The answer is given in Hebrews 2:14 where we read:

Hebrews 2:14
"He himself (Jesus) likewise shared in the same that through death he might destroy him WHO HAD THE POWER OF DEATH THAT IS THE DEVIL"

It is the devil therefore that has the power of death. As John 8:44 characteristically tells us:

John 8:44
"You (He means the Jews with whom he was speaking) are of your father the devil, and the desires of your father you want to do. He (the devil) was MURDERER FROM THE BEGINNING"

Devil was a murderer from the beginning. In contrast, God not only He never desired death, but working to exactly the contrary direction, supplied a complete solution to the death problem. What is this solution? The believing in the Lord Jesus Christ. Really as Jesus said in John 11:25

John 11:25
"Jesus said to her, "I am the RESURRECTION and the life. He who believes in me, though he may die, HE SHALL LIVE"

When shall he live? We have already seen it: in the day of the coming of the Lord when "the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed" (I Corinthians 15:52).
4. Conclusion

In this article, we studied the subject of what happens after death. As we saw, apart from the Lord Jesus Christ that was raised from the dead, there is no other dead that is alive now. The next ones that will be made alive, will be those who are Christ's i.e. the dead Christians, in the day of the Lord's coming. The body they will have that day, will not be a soul body, like the one they used to have up to their death, but a spiritual body, like the body that the Lord Jesus has now. The resurrection of the dead Christians will be followed by the catching up of those Christians that will be alive that day, and whose body will also be changed from soul to spiritual. After all this, "WE (all Christians, dead and alive) SHALL ALWAYS BE WITH THE LORD" (I Thessalonians 4:17).

Having examined what the Bible says about the dead, we moved on and examined some common claims of tradition in the light of what God's Word says. Thus, we saw that the dead:

i) do not go to heaven but to gravedom.

ii) have no consciousness and no share to what happens in life

iii) do not praise God neither give Him thanks.

Moreover, we saw that:

iv) death is not a friend that brings us nearer to God, but an enemy that will be destroyed and that

v) it does not have God as originator but the devil.

From all the above, it should be clear that death is not a hope that as Christians we should have. Instead, our hope is the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ, by which, if we are dead we will be risen, and if we are alive will be caught up in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air (I Thessalonians 4:17). As Christians therefore, we should not wait for the day of our death but for the day of the Lord's coming. As Philippians 3:20-21 characteristically tells us:

Philippians 3:20-21
"For our citizenship is IN HEAVEN, FROM WHICH WE ALSO EAGERLY WAIT FOR THE SAVIOUR, THE LORD JESUS CHRIST, WHO WILL TRANSFORM OUR LOWLY BODY (the soul body) THAT IT MAY BE CONFORMED TO HIS GLORIOUS BODY (the spiritual body), according to the working by which he is able even to subdue all things to himself."

May we therefore open our ears and hearts not to the false "comfort" of the religion but to the true comfort of the Word, so that we may wait not for the day of the miserable event of death but for the day of the glorious coming of the Lord, in which our present corruptible soul body will be transformed "that it may be conformed to his glorious body" and after which "we shall always be with the Lord".

For the full article...

http://www.jba.gr/Articles/nkjv_jbafebmar98.htm

Originally posted by checkbaiter
yes.

The only words I take as gospel truth is the words of Jesus Christ.
Everybody else is a 'maybe'

Originally posted by Rajk999
The only words I take as gospel truth is the words of Jesus Christ.
Everybody else is a 'maybe'

The only words I take as gospel truth is the bible, all of it, including Jesus Christ. 😉

Originally posted by Rajk999
Dont understand how you go from learning what to expect from each poster over time, to 'stop coming to the forums'.

It's a mutual situation then. I don't understand how you can think that one of the regular and frequent posters who is also a long-them committed Christian and who believes he would rather die than give misinformation about the Bible...and then public ally declares he believes something completely ridiculous and obviously incorrect...is a "non-issue".

Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
(OP's final paragraph) However, I wouldn't be doing those of you who have not yet believed in Christ any favors by sugar coating your options or by withholding the facts regarding their diametrically opposed eternal consequences. Objectively focused, relevant questions will be answered in the sequence asked during the days and weeks ahead. For your own sake, please ponder the information given above. Thank you. -GB

I do believe in Christ, but I don't believe in most of the mythology and misinformation you're handing out.

Originally posted by divegeester
It's a mutual situation then. I don't understand how you can think that one of the regular and frequent posters who is also a long-them committed Christian and who believes he would rather die than give misinformation about the Bible...and then public ally declares he believes something completely ridiculous and obviously incorrect...is a "non-issue".

Its a non issue for me wheher or not a poster decides to make a fool of himself. And like I said I cannot imagine Christ condemning anyone for having weird interpretations.

Originally posted by checkbaiter
The only words I take as gospel truth is the bible, all of it, including Jesus Christ. 😉

Nobody has the correct interpretation of the Bible. What people have is their own interpretation of the Bible, hence the reason why there are thousands of possible ways people interpret the bible.

You in particular is biased away from teachings of Christ by two claims
- the Administration of Grace business that leaves out Christ
- the New Covenant which you seem to think starts in Acts, again leaving out Christ.

But then you claim you believe in Christ one one hand.. just you dont believe in Christ doctrine or that it does not apply to you .. or something along those lines .. nicely sidestepping away from Christ .

Originally posted by Rajk999
Nobody has the correct interpretation of the Bible. What people have is their own interpretation of the Bible, hence the reason why there are thousands of possible ways people interpret the bible.

You in particular is biased away from teachings of Christ by two claims
- the Administration of Grace business that leaves out Christ
- the New Covenant which ...[text shortened]... oes not apply to you .. or something along those lines .. nicely sidestepping away from Christ .

the Administration of Grace business that leaves out Christ
the New Covenant which you seem to think starts in Acts, again leaving out Christ

Both are because of Christ. He is the head in both.

Originally posted by Rajk999
Its a non issue for me wheher or not a poster decides to make a fool of himself. And like I said I cannot imagine Christ condemning anyone for having weird interpretations.

I'm also sure Christ is not condemning Grampy Bobby for his "weird interpretations", but what that has to do with discussing them in here I really don't know.

Originally posted by divegeester
I'm also sure Christ is not condemning Grampy Bobby for his "weird interpretations", but what that has to do with discussing them in here I really don't know.

Well from the response of Christians here it is obvious that many dont care to discuss it .. I can understand why. Why you care to discuss GBs nonsense I really dont know 😀

Originally posted by Rajk999
Why you care to discuss GBs nonsense I really dont know

From earlier in this thread:

Grampy Bobby has set himself out in this forum to be only interested in teach what he sees as scripturally correct, nothing more, nothing less. He has gone so far on occasion to say that he would rather die than present an inaccurate account of Biblical scripture.

So, considering that stance he has made - and considering that in this thread he is proclaiming that hell is an actual underground cavern here in the earth, this topic is a profoundly important "issue", which as you say, reflects directly on his credibility as someone who only speaks the truth about Biblical scripture.

It is notable that one or two handful are aligning with GB, but largely most Christians here are giving this thread a wide berth. Presumably because they realise the implications even if Rajk999 doesn't.

Originally posted by divegeester
From earlier in this thread:

Grampy Bobby has set himself out in this forum to be only interested in teach what he sees as scripturally correct, nothing more, nothing less. He has gone so far on occasion to say that he would rather die than present an inaccurate account of Biblical scripture.

So, considering that stance he has made - and consideri ...[text shortened]... s thread a wide berth. Presumably because they realise the implications even if Rajk999 doesn't.

There are no implications. GBs opinion is really a non-issue.

Maybe you hold the man too high up on a pedestal so now you are disappointed when he talks garbage.

I dont have that problem.

Originally posted by Rajk999
There are no implications. GBs opinion is really a non-issue.

Maybe you hold the man too high up on a pedestal so now you are disappointed when he talks garbage.

I dont have that problem.

I neither put him on a pedestal nor am disappointed when he and other Christians post mumbo-jumbo speculation instead of applying common sense to the truth of scripture. My engagement in this forum and these topics stems from a mixture of curiosity amusement.