@fmfsaid Of course. But for someone's misguided nonsense to be a "lie", there has to be some intent to deceive. If X thinks Y's Christian beliefs are misguided nonsense, X cannot accurately characterize them as "lies" unless he believes that Y does not really hold those Christian beliefs and is trying to deceive people deliberately.
The word ‘lie’ can be used simply to mean ‘untruth’. We have been over this many times. That’s how I see it in this context. I don’t read any intention to deceive into the word in the context it is used in.
@dj2beckersaid The word ‘lie’ can be used simply to mean ‘untruth’. We have been over this many times. That’s how I see it in this context. I don’t read any intention to deceive into the word in the context it is used in.
So, if you disagree with someone's opinion and think it is wrong, you believe you can characterize that opinion as a "lie"? That seems ludicrous.
@dj2beckersaid The word ‘lie’ can be used simply to mean ‘untruth’. We have been over this many times.
Yes, talking of having been over this many times, your misuse of the word "lie" can be completely bizarre. I remember you explaining that when the school children you teach get answers wrong on a maths quiz, you consider each incorrect answer by the children to be a lie. It's laughable.
@fmfsaid Of course. But for someone's misguided nonsense to be a "lie", there has to be some intent to deceive. If X thinks Y's Christian beliefs are misguided nonsense, X cannot accurately characterize them as "lies" unless he believes that Y does not really hold those Christian beliefs and is trying to deceive people deliberately.
In this context, the source of the lie is left (probably deliberately) vague. So, while you are correct on the definition of the word "lie", it is quite possible for your X to accurately think that Y believes a lie without thinking that Y is the actual liar.
@fmfsaid So, if you disagree with someone's opinion and think it is wrong, you believe you can characterize that opinion as a "lie"? That seems ludicrous.
If you spread something that I believe to be untrue I may perceive that you are spreading a lie even if there is no certainty on my side that you are spreading the untruth with the knowledge that it is not really true or with the intention to deceive.
@dj2beckersaid If you spread something that I believe to be untrue I may perceive that you are spreading a lie even if there is no certainty on my side that you are spreading the untruth with the knowledge that it is not really true or with the intention to deceive.
I believe using the word "lie" in this way is nothing more than making it clear that you are very certain someone is wrong and you feel a bit emotional or angry or hostile about it and feel the need to smear or denigrate the person you do not agree with.
You are using the word "lie" to refer to something you disagree with and you are seeking to emphasize how strongly you feel about it. It's like the word has an intensifier role.
Are Jews and Muslims who have sincere and strong faith ~ and tell others what they believe ~ are they all "liars" because you don't think their religions are "true"?
@bigdoggproblemsaid In this context, the source of the lie is left (probably deliberately) vague. So, while you are correct on the definition of the word "lie", it is quite possible for your X to accurately think that Y believes a lie without thinking that Y is the actual liar.
Perhaps the thread title/declaration should have read: "Too many people in the culture in which I live believe and accept two things that I really, really disagree with."
@dj2beckersaid If you spread something that I believe to be untrue I may perceive that you are spreading a lie even if there is no certainty on my side that you are spreading the untruth with the knowledge that it is not really true or with the intention to deceive.
Do you still insist that, when school children get answers wrong on a maths quiz, each incorrect answer by a child is a lie?
@fmfsaid Perhaps the thread title/declaration should have read: "Too many people in the culture in which I live believe and accept two things that I really, really disagree with."
Yeah, it loses the intended aspersion cast upon the people with whom the person disagrees. And the idea that there can be "lies" but no "liars" seems to me to underline just how weak this way of using the word "lie" is ~ when one is supposedly wanting to enter into a discourse about differing or conflicting opinions, perspectives and beliefs.
@fmfsaid Yeah, it loses the intended aspersion cast upon the people with whom the person disagrees. And the idea that there can be "lies" but no "liars" seems to me to underline just how weak this way of using the word "lie" is ~ when one is supposedly wanting to enter into a discourse about differing or conflicting opinions, perspectives and beliefs.
I dunno. I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and become offended, but I can't quite get there.
@bigdoggproblemsaid I dunno. I'm trying to put myself in their shoes and become offended, but I can't quite get there.
It's not really about anyone being offended, per se, it's more about the kind of sloppy, self-righteousness emotionalism that is in play when one brands ~ as "lies" ~ beliefs that one disagrees with.
@dj2beckersaid ‘The first is that if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle you must fear or hate them. The second is that to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do. Both are nonsense. You don’t have to compromise convictions to be compassionate.’
I saw this quote on social media. To what extent do you agree or disagree with this statement?
if you disagree with someone’s lifestyle you must fear or hate them
I'd say this is not true ~ meaning that I disagree with it ~ but I don't think someone who does believe it can be described as lying. I have encountered plenty of people who fear and/or hate people whose lifestyles they disapprove of.
to love someone means you agree with everything they believe or do
This is such a daft notion, it's difficult to imagine any adult would think it's true. However, if I did encounter someone who held this mistaken and rather naive opinion ~ I'd accept that they could well believe it is true ~ and I certainly would not describe them as lying - or telling a lie - unless of course they were promoting the idea deliberately whilst knowing it was false.
Our culture has accepted two huge lies
01 Jul '20 09:22
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