10 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou start off saying stuff that is not in the Bible.
AGAIN, not disagreeing with you with respect to works in that we will do them. We will as
we are IN HIM walk out our faith doing the works of God. If you don't follow God's leading,
if you reject Him you will find yourself on the outs, unworthy. You can keep saying its all
works, but you are still ignoring the truth about it is by faith we are saved not ...[text shortened]... d done, but according to his mercy, through the water of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit.
AGAIN, not disagreeing with you with respect to works in that we will do them. We will as we are IN HIM walk out our faith doing the works of God. If you don't follow God's leading, if you reject Him you will find yourself on the outs, unworthy
You are saying and you keep saying that .. ' we will do good works'. I dont understand what that means.
Please clarify and provide references.
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayYou did not provide any references, and you are confusing two issues.
I've given you scripture on this, and you dismissed it as you did when I pointed out to you
that Jesus said that those who believe in him are not condemned and those that do not
are condemned already, and they are not condemned because they didn't do enough good
works, but they didn't believe in Jesus.
Originally posted by Rajk999I quoted scripture and you ignore them. You seem to only bother to read those things that
You start off saying stuff that is not in the Bible.
AGAIN, not disagreeing with you with respect to works in that we will do them. We will as we are IN HIM walk out our faith doing the works of God. If you don't follow God's leading, if you reject Him you will find yourself on the outs, unworthy
You are saying and you keep saying that .. ' we will do good works'. I dont understand what that means.
Please clarify and provide references.
agree with you and ignore all the other scripture that doesn't fit your belief system. You
need instead to look at all of it, it all fits together not just the cherry picked ones you quote
to reject what others are telling you.
Clarify with references, why you didn't address those scripture given to you earlier, and
you've ignored others I have given you in the past too.
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayFaith without works is DEAD.
I quoted scripture and you ignore them. You seem to only bother to read those things that
agree with you and ignore all the other scripture that doesn't fit your belief system. You
need instead to look at all of it, it all fits together not just the cherry picked ones you quote
to reject what others are telling you.
Clarify with references, why you di ...[text shortened]... ose scripture given to you earlier, and
you've ignored others I have given you in the past too.
Christians contrary to your claim do not automatically do good works. Non Christians do not automatically do evil works. Those are false unbiblical claims. I asked for references for that and you are trying to weasel out of it.
Originally posted by Rajk999YES, and you have a point?
Faith without works is DEAD.
Christians contrary to your claim do not automatically do good works. Non Christians do not automatically do evil works. Those are false unbiblical claims. I asked for references for that and you are trying to weasel out of it.
I'm not suggesting that anyone who has faith in God does not work, that has never been
my point.
I am saying that you need Jesus Christ, you do need to believe in Him, and He needs to
be your Lord! If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You on the other hand have been suggesting that if your doing good works that is all that
God requires. Christ does not even have to be apart of the process of salvation as you
have been describing it.
You want scripture deal with the ones you were given and we can then move on to more.
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by KellyJayI asked you a zillion times .. where is this in the Bible :
YES, and you have a point?
I'm not suggesting that anyone who has faith in God does not work, that has never been
my point.
I am saying that you need Jesus Christ, you do need to believe in Him, and He needs to
be your Lord! If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You on the other hand have been suggesting that if your doing good works that is al ...[text shortened]... ing it.
You want scripture deal with the ones you were given and we can then move on to more.
.... If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You keep saying this without proof.
Originally posted by Rajk999I know .. you cannot find it.
I asked you a zillion times .. where is this in the Bible :
[b].... If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You keep saying this without proof.[/b]
The Bible never said that because someone accepts Christ they will obey His commandments, or do good works. It does not work that way.
When are you going to admit it?
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I'm not surprised you cannot find where obeying God matters, since you are all about
I asked you a zillion times .. where is this in the Bible :
[b].... If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You keep saying this without proof.[/b]
doing good works.
Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
Deuteronomy 11:13
So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving you today—to love the Lord your God and to serve him with all your heart and with all your soul—
John 14:15
“If you love me, keep my commands.
John 15:10
If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love.
I do not have hopes you grasp that if we love the Lord we obey Him, since your view is
that is not required if we are doing good works.
Originally posted by KellyJayIt really is a shame mankind can't seem to admit its moral codes come from mankind and mankind only. People might project to themselves, 'what would a deity do in this case' and come up with a supposition but that is all it is, mankind making its own rules.
I'm not surprised you cannot find where obeying God matters, since you are all about
doing good works.
Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
Deuteronomy 11:13
So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving ...[text shortened]... love the Lord we obey Him, since your view is
that is not required if we are doing good works.
You can see this in the edict not to eat pork. We now know the problem with pork is a parasite that can be killed if you cook the hell out of it but a deity would not just say, hey, better not eat pork. If it did, I would think it would say, oh also, don't eat those red mushrooms or don't rub against poison ivy or some such, rules about what is good to eat and not good but all they produced was 'don't eat pork'. That is SO human.
Originally posted by KellyJayKJ it is either you are insane or you are a moron.
I'm not surprised you cannot find where obeying God matters, since you are all about
doing good works.
Deuteronomy 7:12
If you pay attention to these laws and are careful to follow them, then the Lord your God will keep his covenant of love with you, as he swore to your ancestors.
Deuteronomy 11:13
So if you faithfully obey the commands I am giving ...[text shortened]... love the Lord we obey Him, since your view is
that is not required if we are doing good works.
You are the one that is saying that if someone accepts Christ then they WILL DO GOOD WORKS AND OBEY CHRIST.
I am saying that believing in Christ does NOT automatically make you do good works.
Nobody is asking you to show where obeying God matters? You get that ... Nobody is asking you to show where obeying God matters?
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by sonhouseIf you really believe that what does it matter? All the religious moral codes would be man
It really is a shame mankind can't seem to admit its moral codes come from mankind and mankind only. People might project to themselves, 'what would a deity do in this case' and come up with a supposition but that is all it is, mankind making its own rules.
You can see this in the edict not to eat pork. We now know the problem with pork is a parasite th ...[text shortened]... t what is good to eat and not good but all they produced was 'don't eat pork'. That is SO human.
made and the results of all of those actions would be man made. All religion would be
would be just an example of how evil people are when they do the bad things they do in a
good name. If you were to remove religion from the public arena you'd still have the root
cause for all the bad things we do to one another, which would still be the people who do
them, not the excuse you believe they are using.
It seems to be the case with people they are quick to blame the "gun" not the heart that
is so wicked it murdered someone with it, they are quick to blame religion not the heart
of those that are doing evil in its name.
You blame the belief in deity, not the wickedness in the hearts of those that do evil in its
name.
Personally, I disagree with you, I do blame the hearts of the one shooting the gun, I do
blame the ones that murder, steal, rob in God's name. I think the justification of bad
actions do not removed the evil of the hearts of those that do evil things.
If this were again all just something people came up with on their own without a god than
who cares? We would just come up with something else to justify ourselves in those
things we want when we want them. We are very flexible in what we do and how we do
justify our own evil, there are people here who actually called for the death of others just
because they don't think like they do and see the world as they do. The hearts of man has
that in them, the justification for bad behavior isn't as important as the source of the bad
behavior which is the human heart as you admit here.
10 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999I never said those that believe in God will automatically do good work!
KJ it is either you are insane or you are a moron.
You are the one that is saying that if someone accepts Christ then they WILL DO GOOD WORKS AND OBEY CHRIST.
I am saying that believing in Christ does NOT automatically make you do good works.
Nobody is asking you to show where obeying God matters? You get that ... Nobody is asking you to show where obeying God matters?
The devil believes in God he does not do good works, there are more than a few people on
the planet that do a great deal of evil in God's name. If you've given your life to Christ, if
you made Him your Lord and Savior you will obey Him and do good works. You've quoted
the scriptures several times, I just wonder how many times you actually read them?
Originally posted by KellyJayI wasn't talking about the absolute value of moral codes, for instance, in some parts of the world it is moral to cut out a young female's clitoris because they think it makes the woman not want to stray from her husband.
If you really believe that what does it matter? All the religious moral codes would be man
made and the results of all of those actions would be man made. All religion would be
would be just an example of how evil people are when they do the bad things they do in a
good name. If you were to remove religion from the public arena you'd still have the root ...[text shortened]... sn't as important as the source of the bad
behavior which is the human heart as you admit here.
That is clearly a man made moral code, a cultural norm and a decidedly disgusting one at that.
I did not say anything about who does the killing, the gun or the person, I was talking about the moral leaders who make morality statements or edicts they supposedly got from some kind of input from a deity.
The thing is, the idea of a hierarchy of religion is another man made construct since a deity could just as easily communicate some moral edict to the entire human race at once and be done with the so-called rabbi, imam, priest, whatever.
The whole concept of a religious hierarchy is 100% man made so special people will be at the top of the religious totem pole and thus wield power. That is TOTALLY a human trait.
Top dog dictates the rules, whether it be a pope or a despot, that comes from the way humanity is made, to be competitive and that is exactly what hierarchical religions do, set up a system of competition to be THE strongest religion, that is how it was 10,000 years ago and that is how it is to this day.
It has always been my view that a real deity would NEVER make religions where one is at loggerheads with another where the deity gives edicts to kill people, women, children, infants, elderly, of another religion BECAUSE of their religion. That is TOTALLY not what a real deity would set up.
Sure, the religious royalty has all that figured out, it is not the TRUE god who is doing that, it is one of god's enemies, of whom it apparently has millions, all of which is just another human ploy to make the most political power for the ONE religion and that OTHER religion is in charge by a devil.
ALL of that nonsense is 100% man made to justify all the killing in the name of the fake man made deity of the hour.
And OF COURSE the expected response is 'so now you think you know the mind of GOD'. And it seems maybe I do to some extent. I cannot see a deity capable of breathing in, calling in, waving a finger, or whatever, making an entire universe of literally hundreds of billions of galaxies each one with hundreds of billions of stars, then pointing out Earth as the star of creation out of those literally thousands of trillions of stars.
We would, in my POV, maybe be looked at as pets, perhaps like the dinosaurs, this deity got tired of its pets and sent an asteroid and some megavolcano activity to shake things up to give mammals its time in the sun.
Only HUMANS think humans are SO important a deity would single us out and make a religion based on people who are the go between's of this god.
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10 Sep 15
Originally posted by Rajk999Phil 3:9-10
I asked you a zillion times .. where is this in the Bible :
[b].... If He is your Lord you will be obeying Him.
You keep saying this without proof.[/b]
and be found in Him, not having my own righteousness, which is from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ, the righteousness which is from God by faith; 10 that I may know Him
NKJV
2 Thess 1:8
in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God,
NKJV
Heb 10:30
For we know Him who said, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord.
NKJV
1 John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true;
NKJV
1 John 2:3
Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.
NKJV
It's interesting that John didn't say, "We know Him, if we keep His commandments." Instead, emphasizing assurance, he did write, "Now by this we know that we know Him." We are sure that we know.