10 Sep 20
@rajk999 saidI do not understand why you would see my post, invent a ludicrous position unrelated to it, and act like I haven't thought this through.
Lets say it was possible to eliminate all killing of all animals all over the world. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? I dont think you thought this through.
This is no way to conduct a discussion.
11 Sep 20
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@petewxyz saidYou are not wrong to avoid eating meat. However neither are you more virtuous if you avoid eating meat. In the overall scheme of things it is irrelevant. Its a choice that has no bearing on anything. There is a small health benefit, and thats about it.
Definite synchronicity. We overlapped a bit, but I started 4 or 5 years earlier. Still wonder about it, but packaging and how far food travels seems the bigger worry for me now.
I'm curious about this idea of Christians not doing it as the bible doesn't require it. Surely you are not wrong to do something conscientious just because the bible doesn't require it?!
11 Sep 20
@philokalia saidYou said pretty clearly that the ideal place to be is where man does not harm animals. Clearly that means there is no killing of animals. What do you find lubricious about my position / question?
I do not understand why you would see my post, invent a ludicrous position unrelated to it, and act like I haven't thought this through.
This is no way to conduct a discussion.
11 Sep 20
@rajk999 saidYes - I hadn't considered millions of sheep let loose on the roads or all those cow pats all over the place. Silly me.
For a man that claimed to be a teacher, I find that your ability to think pretty poor. Google, " wild pigs in the US". Here is one animal, in one country, running around causing billions of $$ in damage to farm crops. Imagine all animals running around, multiplying and people not eating them.
11 Sep 20
@petewxyz saidI think there was a ground-swell of concern for animal rights in the late 80s
Definite synchronicity. We overlapped a bit, but I started 4 or 5 years earlier. Still wonder about it, but packaging and how far food travels seems the bigger worry for me now.
(The Smith's "Meat Is Murder album was 1985) I guess increasing vegetarianism
did reduce suffering and enabled the animal welfare labelling which we have today.
11 Sep 20
@rajk999 saidUsually, when someone says that something would be the ideal, they are talking about it as if it is unobtainable.
You said pretty clearly that the ideal place to be is where man does not harm animals. Clearly that means there is no killing of animals. What do you find lubricious about my position / question?
For instance, you often hear people say things like, 'Communism would be ideal, but...[/i]'
11 Sep 20
@philokalia saidThis was my exact quote, and, as someone who believes in the immortality of the soul and in heaven, I was initially inspired by the idea of how we would live after death.
The ideal form of man is in perfect harmony with nature -- not harming animals.
Specifically, not eating meat. Not exploiting animals.
I hope that clarifies my position.
11 Sep 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidIn Genesis 4 we have this sentence:
I am a vegetarian (though do eat fish, so am probably more accurately described as a pescatarian).
In a Christian context, I think humans are closer to being in the image of God if they are non-meat eaters, replicating the purity of Adam and Eve. Eating meat was a later 'compromise' (for want of a better word) following the flood when man became more like the animals. (A hunter rather than a shepherd).
And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Genesis 4:2 (fragment) AKJV
This strikes me as a pretty rapid switch from the "purity of Adam and Eve" to animal rearing. Abel was busily sacrificing the sheep:
And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat thereof.
Genesis 4:4 (fragment) AKJV
So, he's used to slaughtering animals. I'm not seeing much evidence of primordial vegetarianism here. The only sentence in Genesis that seems to indicate otherwise is this one:
Every moving thing that liveth shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things. But flesh with the life thereof, which is the blood thereof, shall ye not eat.
Genesis 9:3-4 AKJV
There's no indication that eating meat was forbidden before this. I looked this up on Biblehub [1] and there's no indication that this is a sentence meaning "before now you were only allowed 'the green herbs', but now you can eat anything as long as it's not actually alive when you eat it.". While this might have been a traditional interpretation within Christianity or First or Second Temple Judaism, I'm not seeing strong Biblical support for it.
From a rationalist point of view we've been hunting since at least the last Chimp Human common ancestor, carnivorous behaviour is not a recent aberration, so it seems unlikely that the Bible writers would treat it as such.
[1] https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/9-3.htm
11 Sep 20
If I might proffer a secular perspective, which has nothing to do with any god, or anything contained within any ancient text...
I haven't eaten meat since I can remember, although I was raised eating it. As animals, our teeth and digestive systems are adapted to eating flesh, however as a self - conscious being I find the idea of eating the muscles and internal organs of another species (or my own species, just to be clear) abhorrent. I mean drinking the milk of another species is weird enough when you think about it, but I drink gallons of the stuff so there you go, nobody's perfect, and each to their own. Looking after the animals before we slaughter them is a part of that which makes us civilized.
11 Sep 20
I am honestly a bit impressed with the amount of vegetarian-sphere eaters we have here, including former vegetarians.
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I am working on reducing my meat intake. I am also leaning towards purchasing more expensive, local meat because it is more likely to be ethically sourced. I knew a girl whose father was a Korean rancher, and I was able to hear about how her cattle are treated in detail, and I feel much better eating the local beef because of it. Nonetheless, it is still problematic.
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11 Sep 20
@divegeester saidPhilokalia, are you interested in presenting a biblical scripturally based case to support your position ?
I sincerely respect your opinion on animal welfare, but I will contend with you that your position (on vegetarianism) is not biblically scripturally supported.
Please present a scripturally founded argument that indicates that a Christian should not eat meat and I will be happy to engage in a counter argument.
11 Sep 20
@divegeester saidNo, I don't think that my position is clearly biblically supported.
Philokalia, are you interested in presenting a biblical scripturally based case to support your position ?
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11 Sep 20
@philokalia saidThank you for your objectivity.
No, I don't think that my position is clearly biblically supported.
Referring to your second post in this thread then, would you agree that your church’s “official position” is also not bibilically supported?
11 Sep 20
@deepthought saidYou need to back up a little sir to the beginning of Genesis:
In Genesis 4 we have this sentence:And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.
Genesis 4:2 (fragment) AKJV
This strikes me as a pretty rapid switch from the "purity of Adam and Eve" to animal rearing. Abel was busily sacrificing the sheep:
[quote]And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat ...[text shortened]... kely that the Bible writers would treat it as such.
[1] https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/9-3.htm
Genesis 1:29 - “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant that is upon the earth, and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit, they shall be yours for food. And to all the animals on land, to all the birds of the sky, and to everything that creeps on earth, in which there is the breath of life, [I give] all the green plants for food.”
We are clearly presented here with an Eden where people 'and' animals (in their original perfect state) were vegetarians; humans eating seeds and animals eating plants.
As man was created in God's image, God was likewise a vegetarian, and if a Christian inspires to be more like God and move back towards their perfect state, they should give up eating meat.
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11 Sep 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI think your claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny either in the extrapolation you have made of that text in Genesis nor in the context of the Bible over all, and especially the New Testament.
As man was created in God's image, God was likewise a vegetarian, and if a Christian inspires to be more like God and move back towards their perfect state, they should give up eating meat.