Meat Eating

A lot of people are deeply bothered by past injustices.

But I am curious: What amount of you are meat eaters?

And, if you are a meat eater, do you eat only ethically sourced meat? Or do you eat factory farmed meat?

In some religious traditions, veganism & vegetarianism are actively encouraged and even required as part of the vows that one takes when becoming a monk or even just a proper householder in the temple.

In the Western world, there were religious orders of Christians that gave up meat eating, some of them even including laymen who would take such vows. Giving up meat was not just about sacrificing something, but also about the ethical component of living in harmony with all of man's creation.

I think it is certainly the case that the great motivation is mortification, but there is also very much an environmentalist outlook in the Orthodox church, particularly under our 'Green Patriarch,' His Most Divine All Holiness, Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew I, and it is also the case that there are many Saints which speak of the sanctity of animal life, like the modern day saint, St. Porphyrios.

There are now even Christian vegetarian societies.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_vegetarianism

I am also curious if we have any vegetarians, vegans, or reducetarians here.

@philokalia said
A lot of people are deeply bothered by past injustices.

But I am curious: What amount of you are meat eaters?

And, if you are a meat eater, do you eat only ethically sourced meat? Or do you eat factory farmed meat?

In some religious traditions, veganism & vegetarianism are actively encouraged and even required as part of the vows that one takes when becoming a ...[text shortened]... istian_vegetarianism

I am also curious if we have any vegetarians, vegans, or reducetarians here.

I am a vegetarian (though do eat fish, so am probably more accurately described as a pescatarian).

In a Christian context, I think humans are closer to being in the image of God if they are non-meat eaters, replicating the purity of Adam and Eve. Eating meat was a later 'compromise' (for want of a better word) following the flood when man became more like the animals. (A hunter rather than a shepherd).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I am a vegetarian (though do eat fish, so am probably more accurately described as a pescatarian).

In a Christian context, I think humans are closer to being in the image of God if they are non-meat eaters, replicating the purity of Adam and Eve. Eating meat was a later 'compromise' (for want of a better word) following the flood when man became more like the animals. (A hunter rather than a shepherd).

That's exactly right -- that's the official position I hear from my church, and I believe is actually honestly an inspiration to the monks and others who are vegetarian in the Orthodox community.

The ideal form of man is in perfect harmony with nature -- not harming animals.

I had heard a quote years ago about how animals used to stand in awe of man because he is made in the image of God, but it was our violence that actually caused them to run from us, and that, in Heaven, the animals again come to us always in peace, and wish to come near to be with us... It was a very sweet image in my mind, and something that I now recollect frequently.

I am particularly dismayed with factory farming -- it is transaprently very cruel.

I cannot help but think I am doomed to be a hypocrite if I complain about cruelty while eating meat that is cruelly harvested, which is the inspiration behind this very post.

@philokalia said
A lot of people are deeply bothered by past injustices.

But I am curious: What amount of you are meat eaters?

And, if you are a meat eater, do you eat only ethically sourced meat? Or do you eat factory farmed meat?

In some religious traditions, veganism & vegetarianism are actively encouraged and even required as part of the vows that one takes when becoming a ...[text shortened]... istian_vegetarianism

I am also curious if we have any vegetarians, vegans, or reducetarians here.

I was pescatarian for just over 10 years. I gave it up when we planned to have kids. I think I had missed meat and I rationalised that I wanted to eat in a way that was mainstream within the local culture at the time. I was thinking about the increasing prevalence of Eating Disorders and not particularly wanting any focus on diet in day to day family life although that was probably rationalising my decision based on nothing tangible.

My motivation to be pescatarian was definitely concern about the way animals are treated and I try and get ethically sourced food. I am also into zero waste and how many miles the food has travelled to the shops as well. As you research that you discover that prawns do absurd air miles. Cephalopods are also smarter than most farmed animals so pescatarian diet runs into some difficulties.

If I was going to do some very public self examination I think I was also effected by being a junior doctor before the European Working Time Directive when I could work an incredible 144 hours in a single week. I somehow started to feel that the world had had quite enough from me without missing out on meat as well, so I guess the pescatarian diet must have involved wanting some self sacrifice.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
I am a vegetarian (though do eat fish, so am probably more accurately described as a pescatarian).

In a Christian context, I think humans are closer to being in the image of God if they are non-meat eaters, replicating the purity of Adam and Eve. Eating meat was a later 'compromise' (for want of a better word) following the flood when man became more like the animals. (A hunter rather than a shepherd).

I think you will be hard-pressed to find solid proof in the bible that meat eating only came after the flood. The whole idea is nonsensical. Quoting that God told Noah to eat from the animals only AFTER does not mean people did not eat meat before. Here are some reasons:
- Noah took on board animals to be eaten BEFORE the flood. During the 40 days on board the ark they must have been eating meat. The must have been eating meat all their lives otherwise they wont know how to kill and eat meat
- From Adam to Noah there was more than a 1000 yr gap and many millions of people. All could not have been vegetarians. Many were shepherds and animal rearers. Surely you dont think that these people reared animals for their skins and milk

There is no virtue in being a vegetarian. Paul here makes that clear

Whatsoever is sold in the shambles, that eat, asking no question for conscience sake: For the earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof.
(1 Corinthians 10:25-26 KJV)

Forbidding to marry, and commanding to abstain from meats, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving of them which believe and know the truth. For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving: For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer.
(1 Timothy 4:3-5 KJV)

Jesus as well confirmed that people are not defiled by what they eat but by what they do.

And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding? Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught? But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man. For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies: These are the things which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man. (Matthew 15:16-20 KJV)

The book of Genesis is just a skimpy description of events in the first few thousand years. There are other writings, the Book of Enoch, the book of Jubilees and a couple others that speaks more on lifestyles in that period.


-

@philokalia said
A lot of people are deeply bothered by past injustices.

But I am curious: What amount of you are meat eaters?

And, if you are a meat eater, do you eat only ethically sourced meat? Or do you eat factory farmed meat?

In some religious traditions, veganism & vegetarianism are actively encouraged and even required as part of the vows that one takes when becoming a ...[text shortened]... istian_vegetarianism

I am also curious if we have any vegetarians, vegans, or reducetarians here.

Lets say it was possible to eliminate all killing of all animals all over the world. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? I dont think you thought this through.

@rajk999 said
I think you will be hard-pressed to find solid proof in the bible that meat eating only came after the flood. The whole idea is nonsensical. Quoting that God told Noah to eat from the animals only AFTER does not mean people did not eat meat before. Here are some reasons:
- Noah took on board animals to be eaten BEFORE the flood. During the 40 days on board the ark they m ...[text shortened]... noch, the book of Jubilees and a couple others that speaks more on lifestyles in that period.


-

You have misunderstood me a little there old chap. I'm sure humans did eat meat between the fall and the great flood. (And no doubt was a contributory factor in God regretting making mankind). My point was that it was only after the flood that God made the compromise and 'accepted' humans eating animals. As a species we had sunk so low that He was rewriting the rules. (Expecting less of us).

We see this in Genesis 9:3:

'Everything that lives and moves about will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.'

God is telling Noah and his family that animals will 'now' be their food. Why would he do this if eating animals was already acceptable to Him?

@philokalia said
That's exactly right -- that's the official position I hear from my church, and I believe is actually honestly an inspiration to the monks and others who are vegetarian in the Orthodox community.

The ideal form of man is in perfect harmony with nature -- not harming animals.

I had heard a quote years ago about how animals used to stand in awe of man because he is m ...[text shortened]... cruelty while eating meat that is cruelly harvested, which is the inspiration behind this very post.

I sincerely respect your opinion on animal welfare, but I will contend with you that your position (on vegetarianism) is not biblically scripturally supported.

Please present a scripturally founded argument that indicates that a Christian should not eat meat and I will be happy to engage in a counter argument.

@rajk999 said
Here are some reasons:
The must have been eating meat all their lives otherwise they wont know how to kill and eat meat

Do you seriously think vegetarians wouldn't know how to kill animals?
Or eat them!?

@rajk999 said
Lets say it was possible to eliminate all killing of all animals all over the world. Can you imagine the chaos that would ensue? I dont think you thought this through.

The only chaos would be an abundance of fodder!

You don't think planes would fall from the sky do you?

@petewxyz said
I was pescatarian for just over 10 years. I gave it up when we planned to have kids.

Me too. I wonder if it was about the same time?
I gave up farmed animals (occasionally ate game) after reading about appalling
animal transportation and slaughtering. Thought I might make a slight difference.

Fish and heaps of cheese from 1989 to 2001!

Finally succumbed to meat when my "step-sons" kept leaving so
much on their plate. Snowballed from there and now a carnivore.
Try not to eat too much and ensure it's ethically sourced.

@wolfgang59 said
Do you seriously think vegetarians wouldn't know how to kill animals?
Or eat them!?

Yes, seriously.

@wolfgang59 said
The only chaos would be an abundance of fodder!

You don't think planes would fall from the sky do you?

For a man that claimed to be a teacher, I find that your ability to think pretty poor. Google, " wild pigs in the US". Here is one animal, in one country, running around causing billions of $$ in damage to farm crops. Imagine all animals running around, multiplying and people not eating them.

@wolfgang59 said
Me too. I wonder if it was about the same time?
I gave up farmed animals (occasionally ate game) after reading about appalling
animal transportation and slaughtering. Thought I might make a slight difference.

Fish and heaps of cheese from 1989 to 2001!

Finally succumbed to meat when my "step-sons" kept leaving so
much on their plate. Snowballed from there and now a carnivore.
Try not to eat too much and ensure it's ethically sourced.

Definite synchronicity. We overlapped a bit, but I started 4 or 5 years earlier. Still wonder about it, but packaging and how far food travels seems the bigger worry for me now.

I'm curious about this idea of Christians not doing it as the bible doesn't require it. Surely you are not wrong to do something conscientious just because the bible doesn't require it?!

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You have misunderstood me a little there old chap. I'm sure humans did eat meat between the fall and the great flood. (And no doubt was a contributory factor in God regretting making mankind). My point was that it was only after the flood that God made the compromise and 'accepted' humans eating animals. As a species we had sunk so low that He was rewriting the rules. ...[text shortened]... mals will 'now' be their food. Why would he do this if eating animals was already acceptable to Him?

Got it. I would still maintain that God does not really care if someone eats meat or not. If he did then it would be written somewhere in the Law of Moses. This law was meant to create a people for God who would be pure in their ways and habits. There is much detail in the Law of Moses about diet but not a single word about being vegetarian. If there is then please provide and reference. Even the priests and Levites who were the ones considered to be Gods chosen to enforce his will were REQUIRED to eat meat.