@wolfgang59 said
I think there was a ground-swell of concern for animal rights in the late 80s
(The Smith's "Meat Is Murder album was 1985) I guess increasing vegetarianism
did reduce suffering and enabled the animal welfare labelling which we have today.

Yes, I was a student in Manchester from 1979. Used to go to the Factory and PSV before it evolved into the Hacienda and moved to the central location, so Smiths etc was all happening at that time. Good time to be there.

@philokalia said
This was my exact quote, and, as someone who believes in the immortality of the soul and in heaven, I was initially inspired by the idea of how we would live after death.

Specifically, not eating meat. Not exploiting animals.

I hope that clarifies my position.

The question remains. Suppose as you suggest that man start aiming for an ideal. You even implied that it is biblically sound to aim to this vegetarian ideal. What therefore do you think would be the end result on the environment if this process were to start ? Its a fair question.

I pointed out the case of the US where one feral animal, causes billions of $$ damage to farm crops every year.

@philokalia said
This was my exact quote, and, as someone who believes in the immortality of the soul and in heaven, I was initially inspired by the idea of how we would live after death.

Specifically, not eating meat. Not exploiting animals.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Just as a side point. The bible supports neither of these doctrines:
- immortality of the soul [not in the bible. Jesus said the soul can die]
- heaven [its the realm of God, nobody goes there after death. Jesus said so as well that nobody goes to heaven]

What does avoiding meat have to do with how one lives after death?

@deepthought said
In Genesis 4 we have this sentence:

And Abel was a keeper of sheep, but Cain was a tiller of the ground.

Genesis 4:2 (fragment) AKJV

This strikes me as a pretty rapid switch from the "purity of Adam and Eve" to animal rearing. Abel was busily sacrificing the sheep:
[quote]And Abel, he also brought of the firstlings of his flock and of the fat ...[text shortened]... kely that the Bible writers would treat it as such.

[1] https://biblehub.com/text/genesis/9-3.htm

Correct, and further to that God was displeased with the vegetarian offering provided by Cain and was pleased with Abel's sacrifice of the sheep. Jesus also allowed the evil spirits to enter a herd of pigs that went crazy and drowned.

The idea that people now have about the humane treatment of animals is unsupported in the bible. By all means be humane to animals but to claim some kind of virtue for doing so is useless.

@divegeester said
I think your claim doesn’t hold up to scrutiny either in the extrapolation you have made of that text in Genesis nor in the context of the Bible over all, and especially the New Testament.

It is not my position that modern day Christians are expected to be vegetarian, but rather that this was God's original intent.

Many Christians hold this position which I think is supported by the text I provided. Before the fall, humanity was vegetarian.

@rajk999 said
The question remains. Suppose as you suggest that man start aiming for an ideal. You even implied that it is biblically sound to aim to this vegetarian ideal. What therefore do you think would be the end result on the environment if this process were to start ? Its a fair question.

I pointed out the case of the US where one feral animal, causes billions of $$ damage to farm crops every year.

It is never an easy process to return to the starting point of something, and is often impossible.

Originally, our oceans were free of plastic. We may strive now to return our waters to their pure state, but it is highly unlikely we will ever succeed in doing so. Could humanity return to its original state of vegetarianism? Probably not. Would the process cause damage in certain sectors? Almost certainly.

That said, 'a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" (Robert Browning).

@rajk999 said

The idea that people now have about the humane treatment of animals is unsupported in the bible. By all means be humane to animals but to claim some kind of virtue for doing so is useless.

'Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.' Proverbs 12:10 ESV

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is never an easy process to return to the starting point of something, and is often impossible.

Originally, our oceans were free of plastic. We may strive now to return our waters to their pure state, but it is highly unlikely we will ever succeed in doing so. Could humanity return to its original state of vegetarianism? Probably not. Would the process cause dam ...[text shortened]... y.

That said, 'a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for?" (Robert Browning).

Of course things will go back to the way God wants it and it is not impossible. Impossible for man but not God. The bible supports the notion that all of mankind will eventually become vegetarians.

Certainly there will be a massive fallout. Im trying to get Philokalia to make a comment on the kind of damage a complete change to vegetarianism will bring on mankind but he is is not willing.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
'Whoever is righteous has regard for the life of his beast, but the mercy of the wicked is cruel.' Proverbs 12:10 ESV

Good reference. A righteous man will treat his animals well. Cruelty to both people and animals alike, would be contrary to his personality, and ride against his conscience. The Law of Moses made this point clear for the Jews.

I support vegetarianism. What I do not support is the belief that it follows that a vegetarian is virtuous or in some way superior to meat eaters.

Even worse are the fanatical idiots who whine about cruelty to animals and yet would not bat an eyelid when confronted with child abuse, kidnappings and abductions for body parts and other such sick behavior. Their moral compass is screwed.

@rajk999 said
Good reference. A righteous man will treat his animals well. Cruelty to both people and animals alike, would be contrary to his personality, and ride against his conscience. The Law of Moses made this point clear for the Jews.

I support vegetarianism. What I do not support is the belief that it follows that a vegetarian is virtuous or in some way superior to meat eaters. ...[text shortened]... appings and abductions for body parts and other such sick behavior. Their moral compass is screwed.

As a vegetarian, I feel no superiority over meat eaters. It is a matter of choice. (And I know many people far more virtuous than myself who eat meat). Biblically speaking however, man in his original state was vegetarian and it is a state he will eventually returned to if he/she is saved. It logically follows therefore that vegetarianism is God's preference for creation.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You need to back up a little sir to the beginning of Genesis:

Genesis 1:29 - “See, I give you every seed-bearing plant that is upon the earth, and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit, they shall be yours for food. And to all the animals on land, to all the birds of the sky, and to everything that creeps on earth, in which there is the breath of life, [I give] a ...[text shortened]... ires to be more like God and move back towards their perfect state, they should give up eating meat.

There's only the two of them in the Garden of Eden and it's before the fall. That is a state the Bible explicitly states humans can't return to:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:24 AKJV

There's no indication God ate anything at all. Why would God need to eat? I don't think there's any biblical justification for a claim that God is a vegetarian, this might be a justification for a claim that it is what he intended, but that intent is somewhat dicey given the omniscience claim - if God is omniscient he must have known what was going to happen so it's not obvious what his intent is in this matter.

Since Noah was explicitly given permission to eat meat, I think the passage was quoted above, I don't think there's any onus on Christians to become vegetarians, except for the kind of reason that non-Christians would.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is not my position that modern day Christians are expected to be vegetarian, but rather that this was God's original intent.

Many Christians hold this position which I think is supported by the text I provided. Before the fall, humanity was vegetarian.

God’s original intent is what is being played out anyway. There is ample scriptural evidence for his sovereignty and predestination of all things. But I would concur that pre fall creation did not include death of any sort.

There is ample scriptural evidence that Christians should eat meat, irrespective of pre fall characteristics. However there is also ample contextual evidence that Christians should follow their conscience in the matter of food.

I reject the proposition that Christians should be vegetarian because of any pre fall circumstances.

@deepthought said
There's only the two of them in the Garden of Eden and it's before the fall. That is a state the Bible explicitly states humans can't return to:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:24 AKJV

There's no indic ...[text shortened]... y onus on Christians to become vegetarians, except for the kind of reason that non-Christians would.

Agreed.

@deepthought said
There's only the two of them in the Garden of Eden and it's before the fall. That is a state the Bible explicitly states humans can't return to:

So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.

Genesis 3:24 AKJV

There's no indic ...[text shortened]... y onus on Christians to become vegetarians, except for the kind of reason that non-Christians would.

How do you interpret Genesis 1:29:

“See, I give you every seed-bearing plant that is upon the earth, and every tree that has seed-bearing fruit, they shall be yours for food. And to all the animals on land, to all the birds of the sky, and to everything that creeps on earth, in which there is the breath of life, [I give] all the green plants for food.”

@deepthought said
There's no indication God ate anything at all. Why would God need to eat? I don't think there's any biblical justification for a claim that God is a vegetarian, this might be a justification for a claim that it is what he intended, but that intent is somewhat dicey given the omniscience claim - if God is omniscient he must have known what was going to happen so it's not ...[text shortened]... y onus on Christians to become vegetarians, except for the kind of reason that non-Christians would.

It is difficult for me to enter any serious conversation about whether or not a fictional deity ate anything (the Greek gods certainly did), but am going simply by the biblical assertion we are made in His image.

And again, God has given permission for man to eat meat (after the flood) so there is no expectation for Christians today to be vegetarian. But this doesn't negate the fact that humans, in their original state, were vegetarians. (And therefore what God intended).