Is there any meaning in life without God?

Originally posted by eagles54
Buddhist teaching disputes your claim.

The qualities of compassion, kindness, love, and the wisdom of insight are inherent in our being. The strong disturbing emotions of fundamental ignorance, greed, anger, pride and envy cloud our perception of our pure nature. These qualities are not fleeting when fully realized.

How can you make such claims when ...[text shortened]... of the far side of the river, yet a boat is available for the traversing but you won't use it.

Well, I tend to disagree. Man is morally depraved by nature. Its not difficult to figure that out. Just look at the nature of any human being. We tend to do wrong things out of our own. Just look at the nature of a small child. Never been caught with your finger in the sugar pot as a kid?

Originally posted by dj2becker
Well, I tend to disagree. Man is morally depraved by nature. Its not difficult to figure that out. Just look at the nature of any human being. We tend to do wrong things out of our own. Just look at the nature of a small child. Never been caught with your finger in the sugar pot as a kid?

It's high time someone pointed out the moral depravity of eating sweets. Too long has this insidious addiction permeated our society!

Originally posted by dj2becker
Man is morally depraved by nature. Its not difficult to figure that out. Just look at the nature of any human being. We tend to do wrong things out of our own. Just look at the nature of a small child. Never been caught with your finger in the sugar pot as a kid?

"Man is morally depraved by nature."

That implies that we humans cannot help but do evil, that wrongdoing is our inherent nature. The evidence indicates otherwise, and you know as well as I that there are innumerable acts of selflessness committed each and every day. Or perhaps you'd rather continue to ignore that fact?

Where does an evil act stem from? Nothing more than the idea of self-cherishing. If a person can reduce self-cherishing through many differing methods of practice, they can increase their good qualities while removing 'evil' ones. Therefore, our so-called depraved nature is not our nature at all, but a result of ego-clinging.

How do explain the many selfless acts you've witnessed yourself?

Originally posted by eagles54
"Man is morally depraved by nature."

That implies that we humans cannot help but do evil, that wrongdoing is our inherent nature. The evidence indicates otherwise, and you know as well as I that there are innumerable acts of selflessn ...[text shortened]... How do explain the many selfless acts you've witnessed yourself?

The evidence indicates otherwise, and you know as well as I that there are innumerable acts of selflessness committed each and every day. Or perhaps you'd rather continue to ignore that fact?

Would you mind pointing out some of the evidence? What types of selfless acts are you refering to? I can think of some suicide bombers that are doing many selfless acts...

Finney has some insightful words on moral depravity. Take a look at:
http://www.gospeltruth.net/1862OE/620326_morl_dpravit_pt2.htm

Where does an evil act stem from? Nothing more than the idea of self-cherishing. If a person can reduce self-cherishing through many differing methods of practice, they can increase their good qualities while removing 'evil' ones. Therefore, our so-called depraved nature is not our nature at all, but a result of ego-clinging.


As I see it evil stems from the heart of man. The heart of man is deceiptful above all things and out of it flows all types of evil. There is no way you are going to stop the evil flowing, even if you try to good things such as selflessness.

How do explain the many selfless acts you've witnessed yourself?
It depends what acts you are talking about. As I see it it is an attempt to find inner satisfaction.

Originally posted by dj2becker
[b]The evidence indicates otherwise, and you know as well as I that there are innumerable acts of selflessness committed each and every day. Or perhaps you'd rather continue to ignore that fact?

Would you mind pointing out some of the evidence? What types of selfless acts are you refering to? I can think of some suicide bombers that are doing many ...[text shortened]... epends what acts you are talking about. As I see it it is an attempt to find inner satisfaction.[/b]

Do you mean to tell me you know of no acts of selfless behavior in your immediate circle of friends, family, acquaintances? Not one of them are helpful with no thought of reward? Not one of them is a volunteer for some group that benefits others? No one you know goes out of their way to give freely of their time, guidance, or care? You don't ever observe the goodness of people who expect nothing from their largesse except that someone is the better for it? What a terrible existence you must lead, believing yourself and the rest of us evil at heart.

I'm so very thankful I do not share your viewpoint. I do not deny that there is a terrible amount of hatred and wrongdoing in the world, but it is not our inherent nature.

I know many people who are what I would call 'good.' They are not perfect but they do so much for others with no thought of receiving anything in return. How can you possibly say their hearts are evil?

Originally posted by dj2becker
True happiness, security, pleasure, love, can only be obtained from God. Sure you can experience happiness, pleasure, love etc, if you are not a Born Again. But the problem is that it is only fleeting and temporary. You can never be truely satisfied. You always crave more but you are never filled. The difference is that when you become a born again believe ...[text shortened]... ife you obtain true happiness, security, pleasure, love, etc. and thus true "meaning in life".

I don't believe Born Agains have some inherent access to greater happiness than all non Born Agains by virtue of their religion. Can you prove otherwise?

I think the happiness Born Against experience is also temporary. Are you telling me Born Agains are in a constant state of bliss and never suffer? BS.

I am still unsure which is more important to you. Which is the meaning of life? Glorifying God or happiness and love? Your post suggests the latter, with the implication that being a Born Again is a means to that end.

As eagles points out, why should I believe you and not the Buddhists?

Man is morally depraved by nature.

Depends how you define "morally depraved". I believe humans have both selfish and sadistic aspects to our nature as well as loving and altruistic aspects. I agree with you that humans can be scum; however I disagree that humans can only show kindness and love by being BA. Those of you who are not BAs...do you never experience these things?

Your model which describes human behavior is seriously flawed.

Originally posted by eagles54
Do you mean to tell me you know of no acts of selfless behavior in your immediate circle of friends, family, acquaintances? Not one of them are helpful with no thought of reward? Not one of them is a volunteer for some group that benefits others? No one you know goes out of their way to give freely of their time, guidance, or care? You don't ever observe t ...[text shortened]... ith no thought of receiving anything in return. How can you possibly say their hearts are evil?

I think most Christians think of people in terms of good and bad in a ambiguous or relative sense. I would say Joe the mail man is a good guy because he is friendly and smiles a lot. My librarian is a sweet person. The neighbor's kid is a good boy - never seems to hassle his parents. We don't go around brooding over how evil and vile everyone we know is. But the evil in the nature of man is still real.

It has significant implications to our relationship to God. It also humbles us so we do not think we are deserving of God's love (we have not earned it - and can not). We do not earn the love of our parents or our children. And that too is humbling. And we tend not to spend so much time focusing on self - and we focus on our loved ones, neighbors, even our enemies. We are not concerned with inner peace, but peace with God.

Originally posted by Coletti
But the evil in the nature of man is still real.

Why do people sacrifice their lives for others if their nature is evil?

Originally posted by eagles54
Why do people sacrifice their lives for others if their nature is evil?

No one knows the heart of man. A sacrifice need not be truly gracious - it could be in hopes of reward. Suicide bombers consider their actions as a sacrifice for the greater good - but they also do it for the reward they are promised.

Any true sacrifice that a Christan makes is only possible by the power of the Spirit of God.

Originally posted by Coletti
No one knows the heart of man. A sacrifice need not be truly gracious - it could be in hopes of reward. Suicide bombers consider their actions as a sacrifice for the greater good - but they also do it for the reward they are promised.

Any true sacrifice that a Christan makes is only possible by the power of the Spirit of God.

What is it with you and dj2b and suicide bombers?

I'm talking about a man drowning in a river trying to save another man's child. I don't think he contemplated earthly or heavenly reward before taking action...

Originally posted by eagles54
Why do people sacrifice their lives for others if their nature is evil?

Remember as we see it, man is still created in Gods image. There is a continual struggle between our morally depraved nature and our God given knowledge of good and evil. Every person knows what is good and evil. (After eating from the fruit of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.) Thus even if our human nature is morally depraved by sin we still know what is right and wrong and do sometimes try to do what we think is right. However, more often than not we find ourselves doing what is wrong if we are still in our sinful state. A father described it to his son in this way. "There are two wolves within us. The one wolf is the good, pure, innocent one. He always wishes to help and do what is right. The other wolf is evil, and always wants to kill, breakdown and destroy everything. These two wolves are constantly fighting each other." The son asked the father which one would win. The father said, "The one you feed."

Hopes this clears it up a bit.

Good night.🙂 (Well its time to go to bed here in SA)

Originally posted by eagles54
What is it with you and dj2b and suicide bombers?

I'm talking about a man drowning in a river trying to save another man's child. I don't think he contemplated earthly or heavenly reward before taking action...

And he probably did not have time to give the situation a lot of thought. He may have acted out of the knowledge that God demands we risk our lives if we can save another - or just as possible he acted out the the desire to be a hero and all the glory that comes with it. The act itself does not tell us what he was thinking, or what motivated him. To say otherwise would be an emotional response - and the desire to never speak ill of the dead - that being a social taboo. Maybe his last thought was "Boy am I stupid!" - or it might have been "If only I had jumped in sooner." Who knows?

Originally posted by AThousandYoung
I don't believe Born Agains have some inherent access to greater happiness than all non Born Agains by virtue of their religion. Can you prove otherwise?

I think the happiness Born Against experience is also temporary. Are you telling me Born Agains are in a constant state of bliss and never suffer? BS.

I am still unsure which is more importa ...[text shortened]... never experience these things?

Your model which describes human behavior is seriously flawed.

Born again believers are like everyone else. We have the same issues going on in our life,as all mankind. What we have is the knowledge/faith that this is not our real home. GOD have prepared a much better place, for us. Where there will be no tears, pain, sadness,sorrow and the like, in the place that GOD has prepared for us. So we are glad and Praise and Worship GOD in all the things we go through.

Originally posted by Coletti
And he probably did not have time to give the situation a lot of thought. He may have acted out of the knowledge that God demands we risk our lives if we can save another - or just as possible he acted out the the desire to be a hero and all the glory that comes with it. The act itself does not tell us what he was thinking, or what motivated him. To say o ...[text shortened]... was "Boy am I stupid!" - or it might have been "If only I had jumped in sooner." Who knows?

Or he may have acted out of his inherent "good" nature, since he probably didn't have time to think about it.

Originally posted by Coletti
And he probably did not have time to give the situation a lot of thought. He may have acted out of the knowledge that God demands we risk our lives if we can save another - or just as possible he acted out the the desire to be a hero and all the glory that comes with it. The act itself does not tell us what he was thinking, or what motivated him. To say o ...[text shortened]... was "Boy am I stupid!" - or it might have been "If only I had jumped in sooner." Who knows?

I'm amazed that you would go to lengths to assume nearly any mental state was possible in that instance with the exception of true empathy and compassion.

I guess I should stop practicing kindness for all beings as best I can and just chuck it all. It's my nature to do evil anyway, right? Hell, I may as well face 'facts'...