24 Oct 11
Originally posted by MelanerpesIf that is what you call the BIG QUESTION, then you did not read my last post.
the big question here is about the nature of the son Jesus Christ the Messiah
what is your position?
(a) fully divine
(b) fully human (or maybe fully an angel)
(c) semi-divine (half God and half human)
(d) fully human AND fully divine
(e) the question is impossible to answer given the limitations of human logic.
Here is a BIGGER question
** why do I need to pick a 'position'? Please show me somehwere in the teachings of Christ and Paul that I need to pick one of the following :
(a) fully divine
(b) fully human (or maybe fully an angel)
(c) semi-divine (half God and half human)
(d) fully human AND fully divine
(e) the question is impossible to answer given the limitations of human logic.
But the BIGGEST question of all is - in the 300 years or so before this doctrine was developed how did early Christians manage without the Trinity ? Were they disadvantaged in any way?
For the last time Paul explained who and what Christ was. I quoted lots of verses. Nothing in those verses even hint of Christ and God being one entity or one and the same substance. They are separate and distinct entities with distinct functions and purposes.
24 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by Rajk999So if Christ and God are separate and distinct entities, functions, and purposes:
If that is what you call the BIG QUESTION, then you did not read my last post.
Here is a BIGGER question
** why do I need to pick a 'position'? Please show me somehwere in the teachings of Christ and Paul that I need to pick one of the following :
(a) fully divine
(b) fully human (or maybe fully an angel)
(c) semi-divine (half God and half huma ...[text shortened]... same substance. They are separate and distinct entities with distinct functions and purposes.
it would then seem to mean that there are now two separate Gods - or at least two separate divine entities. Do you see the problem here? It seems to fly in the face of the monotheism that was central to Jewish belief (and many of those early Christians were Jews)
Do you have any theory as to why any Jew would accept what would seem to be a second God? Or a demand that they accept as Lord someone who seemingly was not the God of the Old Testament?
I have no idea why this wasn't an issue during the time of Paul. Perhaps Paul did address the issue but never wrote it down - or maybe the epistle was lost.
24 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesDo you have a reference which suggests that Christ is God? Christ can have some divine qualities and attributes but that cannot make him God. Have you come to grips with this verse beucase this is very clear language ..
So if Christ and God are separate and distinct entities, functions, and purposes:
it would then seem to mean that there are now two separate Gods - or at least two separate divine entities. Do you see the problem here? It seems to fly in the face of the monotheism that was central to Jewish belief (and many of those early Christians were Jews)
Do yo ul. Perhaps Paul did address the issue but never wrote it down - or maybe the epistle was lost.
1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God.
The head of Christ is God. How can they be the same entity?
The Jews were told that Christ was the Messiah which was promised by the prophets and he was the SON of God. NOT GOD. Its that simple.
Paul did not address an important issue and the RC Church 'fathers' addressed it 300 years later ? Now thats hilarious !
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by MelanerpesPaul was the apostle to the Gentiles, he said. He left the Jews for Peter,
So if Christ and God are separate and distinct entities, functions, and purposes:
it would then seem to mean that there are now two separate Gods - or at least two separate divine entities. Do you see the problem here? It seems to fly in the face of the monotheism that was central to Jewish belief (and many of those early Christians were Jews)
Do yo ...[text shortened]... ul. Perhaps Paul did address the issue but never wrote it down - or maybe the epistle was lost.
James, and John, mainly.
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by MelanerpesPaul was the apostle to the Gentiles, he said. He left the Jews for Peter,
So if Christ and God are separate and distinct entities, functions, and purposes:
it would then seem to mean that there are now two separate Gods - or at least two separate divine entities. Do you see the problem here? It seems to fly in the face of the monotheism that was central to Jewish belief (and many of those early Christians were Jews)
Do yo ...[text shortened]... ul. Perhaps Paul did address the issue but never wrote it down - or maybe the epistle was lost.
James, and John, mainly.
25 Oct 11
2 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999[/i]You are stating that the Son of God is NOT God - although this Son of God did have some "divine attributes". I'm having trouble figuring out how something can have "divine attributes" without actually being divine.
Do you have a reference which suggests that Christ is God? Christ can have some divine qualities and attributes but that cannot make him God. Have you come to grips with this verse beucase this is very clear language ..
[i]1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Chr ...[text shortened]... ortant issue and the RC Church 'fathers' addressed it 300 years later ? Now thats hilarious !
And if the "Son of God the Messiah" is not "a god", what then do you think he is? Is he merely human" Is he a demigod? Or do we just have no way of knowing?
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by RJHindsPaul did focus a lot more on the Gentiles than the others did. But Acts shows that the main places where Paul preached and taught were in the synagogues where his audience was both Jew and Gentile.
Paul was the apostle to the Gentiles, he said. He left the Jews for Peter,
James, and John, mainly.
25 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by MelanerpesYou are not reading what I wrote. I said ... Christ had divine attributes but that does not necessarily make him GOD. Read your post and see if you quoted me correctly. Angels can similarly have divine qualities. Immortality can be considered a divine quality, but that cannot make an angel God. When Christ returns many of the dead in Christ will rise and take on an divine nature .. surely they wont all be GOD, will they?
[/i]You are stating that the Son of God is NOT God - although this Son of God did have some "divine attributes". I'm having trouble figuring out how something can have "divine attributes" without actually being divine.
And if the "Son of God the Messiah" is not "a god", what then do you think he is? Is he merely human" Is he a demigod? Or do we just have no way of knowing?
It might be a difficult thing for some becuse of the type of doctrine on which they were raised but I think its important to focus on what the Bible says rather than on what it did not say.
I say again, nothing was said in the Bible about Christ being God or being equal to his Father who we know as God. You can assume and infer but you should be wise enough to understand the limitations of assumptions and inferences. They cannot supercede hard facts.
I dont understand why you need to understand anything more about Jesus Christ and his nature other than what was clearly stated in the Bible. It could be that indoctrination that a Christian MUST believe in certain attributes of Christ otherwise he is headed from damnation, seems to be the cause.
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by RJHindsLol. Only a few scriptures? You obviously aren't paying attention to our post. We've used scriptures throught the entire Bible. This is your usual responce which is lying about the truth.
I understand your concern that the words "Trinity" and "substance" are not in
the Bible referring to God and Christ. Like I said, for lack of better words,
these words are used to try to explain, as best as we can, the complex nature
of God and Christ as presented in the Holy Bible when considering all scripture
instead of just a few scriptures in isolation, like the JWs do.
And where does this term " the complex nature of God" that trinitarians love to use to describe God come from? Is there a scripture that explains this or is this your excuse for falling for this?
Doesn't the bible say that he is "ONE GOD" and the same scripture that others keep showing you sound so complicated? Do you need the definition of "ONE" spelled out to you?
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by Rajk999I agree, and also Satan trys to copy God by using 3 as well back then and now and in the future.
Do you have a reference which suggests that Christ is God? Christ can have some divine qualities and attributes but that cannot make him God. Have you come to grips with this verse beucase this is very clear language ..
[i]1 Cor 11:3 But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Chr ...[text shortened]... ortant issue and the RC Church 'fathers' addressed it 300 years later ? Now thats hilarious !
25 Oct 11
Originally posted by galveston75The "complex nature" of God is what I call it. The Holy Bible uses the term
Lol. Only a few scriptures? You obviously aren't paying attention to our post. We've used scriptures throught the entire Bible. This is your usual responce which is lying about the truth.
And where does this term " the complex nature of God" that trinitarians love to use to describe God come from? Is there a scripture that explains this or is this your ...[text shortened]... owing you sound so complicated? Do you need the definition of "ONE" spelled out to you?
"MYSTERY". You don't like that either because you think God must explain
everything to you in simple language and keep no secrets from you.
25 Oct 11
2 edits
In a perfect world the son would be as the father.
God's world is perfect.... hence the son is just like the father and thus the son IS the father; this is what I think Jesus was getting at.
That said, I still don't like the trinity doctrine because it means there are three separate yet singular entities... I think, if anything, there is only one entity whom manifests himself in many different ways.
26 Oct 11
Originally posted by tomtom232
In a perfect world the son would be as the father.
God's world is perfect.... hence the son is just like the father and thus the son IS the father; this is what I think Jesus was getting at.
That said, I still don't like the trinity doctrine because it means there are three separate yet singular entities... I think, if anything, there is only one entity whom manifests himself in many different ways.
In a perfect world the son would be as the father.
God's world is perfect.... hence the son is just like the father and thus the son IS the father; this is what I think Jesus was getting at.
Not bad! Keep musing and meditating on the matter.
The Son who perfectly expresses the Father. Not bad.
26 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by tomtom232The following is one of the creed of the Catholic Church that explains
In a perfect world the son would be as the father.
God's world is perfect.... hence the son is just like the father and thus the son IS the father; this is what I think Jesus was getting at.
That said, I still don't like the trinity doctrine because it means there are three separate yet singular entities... I think, if anything, there is only one entity whom manifests himself in many different ways.
their view of the Trinity Doctrine. Look it over and see if you can find
what you have said that you object to and point it out to me, please.
The Athanasian Creed
Whosoever will be saved, before all things it is necessary that he hold the catholic faith;Which faith except every one do keep whole and undefiled, without doubt he shall perish everlastingly.
And the catholic faith is this: That we worship one God in Trinity, and Trinity in Unity;
Neither confounding the persons, nor dividing the substance
For there is one Person of the Father, another of the Son and another of the Holy Spirit.
But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty co-eternal.
Such as the Father is, such is the Son and such is the Holy Spirit.
The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated.
The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible.
The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal.
And yet they are not three eternals, but one eternal.
As also there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles, but one uncreated and one incomprehensible.
So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty;
And yet they are not three almighties, but one almighty.
So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God;
And yet they are not three Gods, but one God.
So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord;
And yet they are not three Lords, but one Lord.
For like as we are compelled by the Christian verity to acknowledge every person by himself to be God and Lord;
so are we forbidden by the catholic religion to say: There are three Gods or three Lords.
The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten.
The Son is of the Father alone; not made nor created, but begotten.
The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son; neither made, nor created, nor begotten, but proceeding.
So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits.
And in this Trinity none is afore, nor after another; none is greater, or less than another.
But the whole three persons are co-eternal, and co-equal.
So that in all things, as aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshipped.
He therefore that will be saved must thus think of the Trinity.
Furthermore it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe rightly the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ.
For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man.
God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and made of the substance of His mother, born in the world.
Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting.
Equal to the Father as touching His Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching His manhood.
Who, although He is God and man, yet He is not two, but one Christ.
One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking of the manhood into God.
One altogether, not by the confusion of substance, but by unity of person.
For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ;
Who suffered for our salvation, descended into hell, rose again the third day from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, He sitteth on the right hand of the Father, God Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
At whose coming all men shall rise again with their bodies;
And shall give account of their own works.
And they that have done good shall go into life everlasting, and they that have done evil into everlasting fire.
This is the catholic faith, which except a man believe faithfully, he cannot be saved.