22 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by robbie carrobieDepends how you read my post.
He who is the I AM; and before Abraham was???
not even proper English and is not supported by either the Hebrew nor the Greek text.
Simply an instance of inaccurate translation leading to erroneous assumptions and
unsubstantiated conclusions.
He who is the I AM and who before Abraham --- he existed. You have to read those scripture with the eye of someone who sees a God capable of existing in the now (AD 33) and also existing before Ambram.
Why do you think those listening to Jesus picked up stones to stone him? He was declaring himself the I AM of the OT - to be God.
22 Oct 11
Originally posted by divegeester
I categorically deny the Godhead being formed of three persons, distinct, separate or other wise.
We worship a jealous God who is singular in entity and who is unchanging. The fact that man cannot figure out the mystery of God in Christ without creating a triune of persons is testament to his limited faith in the core nature of He who is the I AM; an ...[text shortened]... that we need a Trinity.
Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is ONE. "And I change NOT"
I categorically deny the Godhead being formed of three persons, distinct, separate or other wise.
Suppose you came across a presentation which only very reluctantly resorted to the word English "persons" ? Is it conceivable to you that admitting the implications of such a word, the mysterious nature of God could be discussed ?
For example, in John 14:23 where Jesus says - "If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him."
1.) Does "We" there refer to God plus something else ? If so what ?
2.) Does "We" there refer to a plural ?
3.) Suppose I said, that it is difficult to describe what is plural in the expression "We" in John 14:23. Suppose, just for communication's sake we cautiously emply the word "persons" do you object to that ?
If so, then what word should be used to convey what "We" refers to?
We worship a jealous God who is singular in entity and who is unchanging.
When the Bible says "the Word became flesh" (John 1:14) does that mean that the Word didn't become anything He was not before ?
Though God in His moral nature changes not, can you say that "the Word became flesh" involved no change with God ?
The fact that man cannot figure out the mystery of God in Christ without creating a triune of persons is testament to his limited faith in the core nature of He who is the I AM; and is still the son saviour who before Abraham - was.
To me, for God to say that He is the "I AM" means that He alone is self existing and limitless in that self sufficiency. He alone has the ground to be the absolute ground of all being. He IS and without limitation.
To me "I AM" indicates that He also is able to be three-one. In fact God only is absolutely the one "To Be" - that means "To Be" anything He wills to be.
Dear brother, to me "I AM" entails and includes the Father - Son - Holy Spirit (three-one) Divine Being.
I wish I had more time to fellowship but I must attend to some affairs.
See your replies latter.
22 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillOk Jaywill, thanks for that info. While I am mulling over your points, how about answering another related question.
Thanks Rajk999.
I believe in taking the words of Christ literally unless there is very good reason not to. Christ said he was the SON of God and referred to God as his Father.
Should I assume from this the following:
Rajk999 does not believe in any "Trinity" teaching which denies that Jesus was the SON of God ?
If there ...[text shortened]... find Jesus using the actual word [b]"SEPARATE" in regards to Himself and God ?[/b]
How important is this Trinity issue to one's salvation. Will Christ condemn those who simply believe that He is the Son of God, God is the Father and that they are separate entities; one in purpose but separate?
22 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillDon't forget to have him explain who US and OUR referrs to in Genesis inI categorically deny the Godhead being formed of three persons, distinct, separate or other wise.
Suppose you came across a presentation which only very reluctantly resorted to the word English "persons" ? Is it conceivable to you that admitting the implications of such a word, the mysterious nature of God could be discussed ?
...[text shortened]... ip but I must attend to some affairs.
See your replies latter.
relation to what you quoted Jesus (Yahshua) saying. That is when God said,
"Let US make man in OUR image."
22 Oct 11
3 edits
Originally posted by Rajk999
Ok Jaywill, thanks for that info. While I am mulling over your points, how about answering another related question.
How important is this Trinity issue to one's salvation. Will Christ condemn those who simply believe that He is the Son of God, God is the Father and that they are separate entities; one in purpose but separate?
How important is this Trinity issue to one's salvation.
Lord help us if we all had to be conversant on the Trinity before being saved!
I don't think an appreciation of the Trinity is essential to receiving Christ for salvation. Believing Christ is raised from the dead and is Lord, is.
Will Christ condemn those who simply believe that He is the Son of God, God is the Father and that they are separate entities; one in purpose but separate?
I don't think so. The Christian will be examined by Christ as to how much she or he LIVED the Christ who was imparted into them. And that examination is not for anything but reward or loss of reward or discipline during the millennial kingdom.
If we are just talking about the essentials of entering into the gift of eternal redemption, we simply believe that Jesus Christ is alive and invite Him to be our Lord.
Even the word "repentance" or "repent" is hard to find at least in the Gospel of John. We just BELIEVE into a living Jesus Christ.
22 Oct 11
Originally posted by divegeesterWhy do you say Christ was made "below" the angels? Christ reigned and reigns over the angels. Is your context that Jesus walked the Earth while the angels flew above? Or what, exactly.
I categorically deny the Godhead being formed of three persons, distinct, separate or other wise.
We worship a jealous God who is singular in entity and who is unchanging. The fact that man cannot figure out the mystery of God in Christ without creating a triune of persons is testament to his limited faith in the core nature of He who is the I AM; an ...[text shortened]... that we need a Trinity.
Hear oh Israel, the Lord your God is ONE. "And I change NOT"
22 Oct 11
Originally posted by sumydidThe idea is that the Word became "flesh" like man and beast which is lower
Why do you say Christ was made "below" the angels? Christ reigned and reigns over the angels. Is your context that Jesus walked the Earth while the angels flew above? Or what, exactly.
than the state of the angels.
23 Oct 11
Originally posted by jaywillVery nice answer. There are many Christians who believe otherwise and claim that you are not a Christian unless you beleive that Christ is God.
How important is this Trinity issue to one's salvation.
Lord help us if we all had to be conversant on the Trinity before being saved!
I don't think an appreciation of the Trinity is essential to receiving Christ for salvation. Believing Christ is raised from the dead and is Lord, is.
[quote]
Will Christ condemn those ...[text shortened]... hard to find at least in the Gospel of John. We just BELIEVE into a living Jesus Christ.
23 Oct 11
1 edit
Originally posted by jaywillYour first question ..
Thanks Rajk999.
I believe in taking the words of Christ literally unless there is very good reason not to. Christ said he was the SON of God and referred to God as his Father.
Should I assume from this the following:
Rajk999 does not believe in any "Trinity" teaching which denies that Jesus was the SON of God ?
If there find Jesus using the actual word [b]"SEPARATE" in regards to Himself and God ?[/b]
Do you have a quote of Jesus saying that He is "SEPARATE" from God ?
In the light of 1 Cor 11:3, would I also need a quote to show that Christ is separate from man or that man is separate from woman? On the contrary someone claiming that Christ and God are not separate entities has the burden of proof.
I believe that Christ existed as the Son of God in heaven before his appearance on Earth as the son of Mary. I believe that after his death and resurrection he ws given great powers. Those things still cannot make Christ and God his father one and the same entity.
God is in control. Christ is subject to God. They cannot therefore be one and the same entity.
23 Oct 11
Originally posted by Rajk999But I can not figure out what else He could be and still have the power to save
Very nice answer. There are many Christians who believe otherwise and claim that you are not a Christian unless you beleive that Christ is God.
me and resurrect all humans from the grave and judge them. We who believe
will be resurrected into a glorified body just like His resurrected body. Do you
believe this or not?
23 Oct 11
Originally posted by RJHindsWhat else could he be? Is that your reasoning? An angel of God can do all that you describe if GOD gave them the power to do it.
But I can not figure out what else He could be and still have the power to save
me and resurrect all humans from the grave and judge them. We who believe
will be resurrected into a glorified body just like His resurrected body. Do you
believe this or not?
Christ came as the Messiah, the Son of God. He died for our sins and was subquently given power over the destiny of Man. But yet he does not know the day or the hour of his return. Only God his Father knows that.
There are many Hindus who believe that Sai Baba.. some guy in India who does magical things and heals people etc is God. And their reasoning is similar to yours. How else can someone do that unless he is God.
God is All powerful and all knowing. God gives authority to various subjects Christ his son included to do certain things on his authority. That cannot make them God.
23 Oct 11
Originally posted by Rajk999The Trinity Doctrine does not say that the Father and the Son are ONE and
Your first question ..
Do you have a quote of Jesus saying that He is "SEPARATE" from God ?
In the light of 1 Cor 11:3, would I also need a quote to show that Christ is separate from man or that man is separate from woman? On the contrary someone claiming that Christ and God are not separate entities has the burden of proof.
I believe that Ch ...[text shortened]... God is in control. Christ is subject to God. They cannot therefore be one and the same entity.
the SAME entity. These TWO are ONE in SUBSTANCE, for lack of a better
word. Perhaps, I would have used the word KIND, but that also might be
confusing to some. It is sort of like saying our SUBSTANCE is FLESH, while
God's SUBSTANCE is SPIRIT. Man is of a certain KIND of FLESH, mankind
or human. Everything that is born of the FLESH is FLESH and everything
that is born of the SPIRIT is SPIRIT. CHRIST was born of both the FLESH
and the SPIRIT. GOD is the life giving SPIRIT and is a different KIND than
the FLESH of man and animals. Does that help or did I throughly confuse
you?
23 Oct 11
Originally posted by RJHindsIt is confusing but if I were to state simply what the Bible says clearly ..- Christ and God are one in purpose.
The Trinity Doctrine does not say that the Father and the Son are ONE and
the SAME entity. These TWO are ONE in SUBSTANCE, for lack of a better
word. Perhaps, I would have used the word KIND, but that also might be
confusing to some. It is sort of like saying our SUBSTANCE is FLESH, while
God's SUBSTANCE is SPIRIT. Man is of a certain KIND of FLESH, ...[text shortened]... erent KIND than
the FLESH of man and animals. Does that help or did I throughly confuse
you?
The word 'substance' is not in the Bible referring to God and Christ.