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28 Jul 15
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyThis is just a repeat and variant of your often repeated question "If God didn't exist, what possible
If God and the Lake of Fire do not exist, why would anyone experience an emotion of fear? Why not summarily dismiss any such claims and laugh them off? Why in the world even post to a thread titled: "Is Hell Forever" or contribute to a spirituality forum?
difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" that you are so fond of.
And apparently still don't know the answer to.
Hell does not exist, neither does your god.
However, you believe that they do, and you [and your entire religion] is trying to scare us and instil a
fear of hell into us to try to coerce us into joining [or pretending to join] your religion.
I know that there are many Christians who genuinely have a great fear of hell, and of going to it.
And I know this in part due to a large number of atheists who used to be Christians who have to
struggle to throw off that fear even after they no longer believe in god/s.
I have watched many episodes over the years of "The Atheist Experience" public access call in show
based in Austin Texas where they have members of the public call in and ask questions of the hosts.
[You can find their blog here: http://freethoughtblogs.com/axp/ and their show page here: http://www.atheist-experience.com/ ]
And they have had quite a number of calls [and spoken about their experience of meeting many people at conventions]
from atheists [generally newly de-converted] who no-longer believe in god/s but still have an irrational fear of
going to hell that they are struggling with. It's common enough that there are support groups specifically for this
problem.
These people are genuinely suffering, and have suffered psychological damage because of the constant unrelenting
indoctrination throughout their lives literally drumming the fear of hell into them and it's a long and hard process to
undo that damage that has been done to them by religion. Specifically in this case Christianity.
I personally have never believed in any gods and have never believed in hell and thus I don't have any fear of hell.
However I feel strongly for those who do suffer debilitating and ongoing fear of this imaginary place.
And I feel deeply angry at those who perpetuate and instil this fear.
And that means you. And all those like you who constantly tell everyone that they need to repent of their sins and
kiss your gods ass or go to hell.
I don't think you comprehend quite how deep the well of hate and anger is that I have for the despicable lies you and
yours tell that cause so much unnecessary pain and suffering in the cause of your religion.
If you did, you would hesitate to utter such despicable lies in my presence.
And if you ever again wonder why it is I fight against your religion and why I object to faith based beliefs then this is
but one of the many reasons why.
Try to remember that for next time this inane question pops into your head.
EDIT:
Mistake Not My Current State Of Joshing Gentle Peevishness For The Awesome And Terrible Majesty Of The Towering Seas Of Ire That Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath
Ian M. Banks
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyOriginally posted by Grampy Bobby (OP Note)
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"
"Professing evangelical theologians who contend for annihilationism use arguments that are not biblically sound:
Theological conclusion: Annihilationism is false teaching. It is not evangelical doctrine.
•It exalts God’s love above His other attributes and so distorts the doctrine of God’s lo ...[text shortened]... ." (Section 7 of 9) http://sharperiron.org/article/hell-forever-evangelicals-and-eternal-retribution
"Answering annihilationism’s arguments"
"My own comments and questions will be reserved until the presentation of this scholarly study is completed. Thank you."
_____________________________________________
Comment 1) This man's academic credentials, extensive experience and achievements as an author are impressive in my estimation:
"Jim Mook: Associate Professor of Systematic Theology at The Master's Seminary; Sun Valley, California Religious Institutions; Previous: Capital Bible Seminary.
Background Summary: An ordained minister of the Gospel with more than 20 years’ experience teaching on the seminary level, with special focus on teaching and mentoring upper level M.Div. and Th.M. students. Able to teach in all classical areas of evangelical dispensational Systematic Theology and the following areas of Historical Theology: Western Church History; History of Doctrine. Also experienced in training in biblical/theological research and writing, department and program administration, recruiting seminary faculty, and advising students. Especially passionate about mentoring Th.M. students to prepare them for doctoral studies for pastoral and/or academic ministries.
Experience: Associate Professor of Systematic Theology; The Master's Seminary November 2013 – Present (1 year 9 months); Professor of Systematic Theology Capital Bible Seminary August 1991 – May 2013; (21 years 10 months)|Lanham, MD; Instruction in Systematic Theology and Church History; mentoring Th.M. theses.
Publications: “The Church Fathers on Genesis, the Flood, and the Age of the Earth” in Coming to Grips with Genesis: Biblical Authority and the Age of the Earth (Master Books, 2008); Master Books, Green Forest, AR 2008; Essay showing that the Church Fathers believed that the earth was created quickly, in no more than six literal 24-hour days, and no longer than 10,000 years before their time.
Languages: Biblical Hebrew (reading); Koine Greek (reading); French (reading);
Skills: Theology; Curriculum Design;; Religion; Public Speaking; Church History; Leadership Development; Biblical Studies; Teaching; Preaching; Community Outreach; Curriculum Development; Systematic Theology; Mentoring; Higher Education; Coaching;
Education: Dallas Theological Seminary; Doctor of Theology (Th.D.); Historical Theology 1980 – 1985; Dallas Theological Seminary; Dallas Theological Seminary Master of Theology (Th.M.), Historical Theology, Summa Cum Laude 1976 – 1980; Washington Bible College; Bachelor of Arts (B.A.) Religious Education (Pastoral Emphasis), Summa Cum Laude; Valedictorian, Class of 1976.
View Jim’s full profile to... Get introduced; Contact Jim directly; View Jim’s Full Profile... Attended Liberty University, United States; Chair and Professor, Dept. of Old Testament Literature and Exegesis at Washington Bible College; Former Associate Professor of Bible Exposition at Capital Seminary and Graduate School; resident at Washington Bible College."
https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-mook/33/314/897
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28 Jul 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyStill overly enamoured with the "Argument from Authority" I see.
Comment 1) This man's academic credentials, extensive experience and achievements as an author are impressive in my estimation:
You do know that that is a logical fallacy? rhetorical
I would tend to agree that actually reading the bible text would probably favour a view that the Hell espoused
in it is of the 'eternal torment forever' variety as opposed to the "god shows people he doesn't like the afterlife
before painfully killing them just so they can briefly now what they missed out on before they cease existing"
variety.
And the chap you're quoting may well have many qualifications indicating that he's studied this subject in detail.
However, the most important and primary question is still "does hell actually exist?". Which really aught to be
asked and answered first, and not just blithely assumed on faith, before we worry about what the nature of this
hell of yours might be.
Because if it does not actually exist then this entire discussion is pointless [other than perhaps a casual historical
interest in what certain ancient peoples once believed] as you are arguing over the properties of a place that is fictional.
Looking at his 'credentials' I see absolutely nothing there to indicate that he knows or has studied anything that might
actually help in determining if a hell actually exists. [Or any afterlife at all for that matter].
Essentially he has impressive credentials for ascertaining the meaning of a work of fiction.
Much akin to someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Harry Potter universe.
Originally posted by googlefudge“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they will also persecute you; if they kept My word, they will keep yours also. But all these things they will do to you for My name’s sake, because they do not know the One who sent Me. If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not have [f]sin, but now they have no excuse for their sin. He who hates Me hates My Father also. If I had not done among them the works which no one else did, they would not have sin; but now they have both seen and hated Me and My Father as well. But they have done this to fulfill the word that is written in their Law,‘They hated Me without a cause.’"
This is just a repeat and variant of your often repeated question "If God didn't exist, what possible
difference would it make whether or not people put their faith in Him?" that you are so fond of.
And apparently still don't know the answer to.
Hell does not exist, neither does your god.
However, you believe that they do, and you [and your ...[text shortened]... Are Themselves The Milquetoast Shallows Fringing My Vast Oceans Of Wrath[/i]
Ian M. Banks[/quote]
{John 15:18-25)
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28 Jul 15
Originally posted by Grampy BobbyVery well then; attempted fear mongering.
If God and the Lake of Fire do not exist, why would anyone experience an emotion of fear? Why not summarily dismiss any such claims and laugh them off? Why in the world even post to a thread titled: "Is Hell Forever" or contribute to a spirituality forum?
Originally posted by googlefudge"1.Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain [a]in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years; 3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
Still overly enamoured with the "Argument from Authority" I see.
You do know that that is a logical fallacy? rhetorical
I would tend to agree that actually reading the bible text would probably favour a view that the Hell espoused
in it is of the 'eternal torment forever' variety as opposed to the "god shows people he doesn't like the afterli ...[text shortened]... rk of fiction.
Much akin to someone with an encyclopaedic knowledge of the Harry Potter universe.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of [b ]their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.
7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison, 8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the [c]seashore. 9 And they came up on the [d]broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the [e]saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them. 10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and [f]brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever."
"11 Then I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose [g]presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and [h]books were opened; and another [i]book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the [j]books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if [k]anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire."
"Footnotes: a.Revelation 20:1 Lit upon; b.Revelation 20:4 Lit the; c.Revelation 20:8 Lit sea; d.Revelation 20:9 Lit breadth of the earth; e.Revelation 20:9 Or holy ones; f.Revelation 20:10 I.e. burning sulphur; g.Revelation 20:11 Lit face; h.Revelation 20:12 Or scrolls; i.Revelation 20:12 Or scroll; j.Revelation 20:12 Or scrolls; k.Revelation 20:15 Lit anyone was." (New American Standard Bible (NASB)
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Originally posted by Grampy BobbyDid you comprehend my post? I mean at all??
[b]“If the world hates you, you know that it has hated Me before it hated you. If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you. Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A slave is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted Me, they ...[text shortened]... fulfill the word that is written in their Law,‘They hated Me without a cause.’"
{John 15:18-25)[/b]
You read what I wrote and you respond with quotes from the bible?
Quotes expressly giving the same completable and evil threats of hell and damnation I
just wrote a polemic excoriating, I might add.
You have no comprehension of how unremittingly evil that book is. and those quotes are
And how pathetically and utterly useless it is as evidence of anything.
So the people who made up the stories in the bible also made up passages
excoriating those who don't believe the stories they made up.
Am I supposed to be impressed by their self serving delusion reinforcing cop-out clauses
and threats of imaginary punishments for not believing their drivel??
You understand nothing, you are an empty echo-chamber, a parrot regurgitating lines.
Use your own words when talking to me, or don't speak at all.
Originally posted by googlefudge"Use your own words when talking to me, or don't speak at all." Okay, googlefudge, we'll do it your way. Let's presuppose that GB is dead wrong in believing that there is a supernatural deity comprised of three distinct persons who share identical characteristics and attributes: What have I put at risk? What have I lost out on in time and eternity? Neither Pascal nor I have lost a damn thing. Why? Because there never was a viable option of salvation and eternal life revealed in the Word of God in the first place.
Did you comprehend my post? I mean at all??
You read what I wrote and you respond with quotes from the bible?
Quotes expressly giving the same completable and evil threats of hell and damnation I
just wrote a polemic excoriating, I might add.
You have no comprehension of how unremittingly evil that book is. and those quotes are
And h ...[text shortened]... mber, a parrot regurgitating lines.
Use your own words when talking to me, or don't speak at all.
Question: What if gf is dead wrong? Then what?
Originally posted by JS357JS, I frequently hope and pray that you too will one day also experience this same tranquility within your own eternal soul. Here's an observation I was saving for googlefudge which seems equally apropos to this reply: “There are two kinds of people: those who say to God, 'Thy will be done,' and those to whom God says, 'All right, then, have it your way'" -C.S. Lewis. Kind regards, Bob
GB, I respect your being at peace in your faith.
Edit Footnote: This photo of Jim Mook speaks proverbial volumes about his own happiness and the "tranquility within" [his] "own eternal soul." https://www.linkedin.com/pub/jim-mook/33/314/897
GB, I don't believe we have ever seriously engaged, but I have read many of your posts (can't really miss them!) and just found I never had the urge to discuss anything seriously with you.
However, your discussion with GF cannot be left unchallenged.
Here is somebody who has over and over and over again said that he does NOT accept the authority of the Bible, yet you persist in quoting it back at him. Towards what end?
Just consider this quietly for ten seconds and respond honestly, if you can.
If I were to quote the Quran or the Book of Mormon at you, would you listen? Of course not! Your immediate response would be to quote some Bible verse back at me refuting it.
But then I come back and say that the BoM is ABSOLUTELY the literal word of God. It was written by God himself on golden tablets, and translated by the angel Moroni, with seven elders personally witnessing it. How can you possibly NOT believe it?
Would you then accept it, on my say-so?
Of course not. You would have a hundred reasons to prove me wrong.
But then I continue, in post after post after post, quoting the BoM at you, showing that you were wrong, completely ignoring your protestations that you do not believe it.
Wouldn't you feel that that was infuriating, not to say irritating?
Why in heaven's name do people like you (and sonship and Smugface, and some others) keep on and on and on and on, ad nauseum, quoting passages from a book that is NOT taken as authoritative by the person whom you are addressing? Surely that is not only useless, but counterproductive, as GF has eloquently pointed out.
Ponder my BoM and Quran analogy for just a few minutes and see if it makes any sense.
Originally posted by CalJustOriginally posted by CalJust
GB, I don't believe we have ever seriously engaged, but I have read many of your posts (can't really miss them!) and just found I never had the urge to discuss anything seriously with you.
However, your discussion with GF cannot be left unchallenged.
Here is somebody who has over and over and over again said that he does NOT accept the authority of the Bi ...[text shortened]... ed out.
Ponder my BoM and Quran analogy for just a few minutes and see if it makes any sense.[/b]
"Here is somebody who has over and over and over again said that he does NOT accept the authority of the Bible, yet you persist in quoting it back at him. Towards what end?
Just consider this quietly for ten seconds and respond honestly, if you can."
_______________________________
CJ, thanks for weighing in; it's been quite a long while since you've become actively engaged with me on this spirituality forum. In answer to your quoted question: Simply extending the courtesy of a prompt on topic reply to a person whose eternal destiny I care about.
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28 Jul 15
Originally posted by Grampy Bobby
"Use your own words when talking to me, or don't speak at all." Okay, googlefudge, we'll do it your way. Let's presuppose that GB is dead wrong in believing that there is a supernatural deity comprised of three distinct persons who share identical characteristics and attributes: What have I put at risk? What have I lost out on in time and eternity? Neit ...[text shortened]... vealed in the Word of God in the first place.
Question: What if gf is dead wrong? Then what?
"Use your own words when talking to me, or don't speak at all." Okay, googlefudge, we'll do it your way.
Thankyou.
Let's presuppose that GB is dead wrong in believing that there is a supernatural deity comprised of three distinct persons who share identical characteristics and attributes: What have I put at risk? What have I lost out on in time and eternity? Neither Pascal nor I have lost a damn thing. Why? Because there never was a viable option of salvation and eternal life revealed in the Word of God in the first place.
This is the same question restated that I quoted from your profile, the same question you have asked over and over and over
again. And that we have answered over and over and over again.
And it's so unoriginal that there are entire websites dedicated to debunking just this one question if you could only be bothered
to go look.
Given that you have evidently paid no attention whatsoever to any of the replies you have received on this topic.
Why should I or anyone else ever bother engaging with you ever again?
Convince me that this time you will actually listen, and remember my answer, and I will again answer this question.
Like Charlie Brown Kicking a football.
Sigh...
Question: What if gf is dead wrong? Then what?
Same answer as before, convince me you will listen this time and I will tell you.
Otherwise you are no-longer worth it.
Originally posted by CalJustOriginally posted by CalJust
GB, I don't believe we have ever seriously engaged, but I have read many of your posts (can't really miss them!) and just found I never had the urge to discuss anything seriously with you.
However, your discussion with GF cannot be left unchallenged.
Here is somebody who has over and over and over again said that he does NOT accept the authority of the Bi ...[text shortened]... ointed out.
Ponder my BoM and Quran analogy for just a few minutes and see if it makes any sense.
"Here is somebody who has over and over and over again said that he does NOT accept the authority of the Bible, yet you persist in quoting it back at him. Towards what end?"
Because I firmly believe that the Word of God is the ultimate authority regarding absolute truth. Others may believe the same about "the Quran or the Book of Mormon" or nothing at all, in which case I would respect their privilege of doing so. If someone is drowning in utter darkness would you attempt to provide him or her with an effective flotation device or stand idly by and look away while he or she drowns? My sole responsibility as a believer in Christ on this forum is to provide accurate information as opportunities present themselves.