Originally posted by yoctobyteIf they don't then they wouldn't see the jewish people as the gods own chosen people. They do, then they live with the paradox unresolved. And are happy with it.How can christians live with such a crucial paradox unresolved?
Why do you think Christians live with a paradox unresolved?
Originally posted by FabianFnasI don't think that will be necessary. You assume Christians have a problem with your assertion, if I may suggest... it maybe fewer than you think if at all.
Do you understand what the paradox is, or do I have to repeat it once more...?
An observation of mine: You seem to lump 'all Christians' together in your assumptions on what ever topic you bring up, not a very honest approach me thinks.
Originally posted by yoctobyte"You assume Christians have a problem with your assertion..."
I don't think that will be necessary. You assume Christians have a problem with your assertion, if I may suggest... it maybe fewer than you think if at all.
An observation of mine: You seem to lump 'all Christians' together in your assumptions on what ever topic you bring up, not a very honest approach me thinks.
Every christian thinking that the jews are the chosen people should have a problem, yes.
Well, do you rather think that I should treat babtists separately from mtheodists, JW mormons, catholics, russion ortodoxes, fantatics, fundamentalists, kopts, whatever, as a separate question? No, I rather lump them together. If anyone says "As a baptist I think that...", that I have no problem with.
You don't have any problems to harbour this paradox, do you? You don't have any need to resolve the paradox? You avoid the paradox very well.
Originally posted by FabianFnas
"You assume Christians have a problem with your assertion..."
Every christian thinking that the jews are the chosen people should have a problem, yes.
Well, do you rather think that I should treat babtists separately from mtheodists, JW mormons, catholics, russion ortodoxes, fantatics, fundamentalists, kopts, whatever, as a separate question? No, I ra ...[text shortened]... aradox, do you? You don't have any need to resolve the paradox? You avoid the paradox very well.
You don't have any problems to harbour this paradox, do you? You don't have any need to resolve the paradox? You avoid the paradox very well.
As I said it is not a paradox to me as to you.
Romans 3:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
I am not avoiding anything, as there is nothing to avoid. Will you answer a question for me that you do seem to be avoiding? Do you adhere to any faith? By this I mean, are you a Christian, Jew, Muslim, JW, Hindu, Atheist, etc.? Do you believe in anything spiritual? Do you not answer because it would mean trouble for you? I am just trying to understand you a little better. Thx.
Originally posted by yoctobyteFunny. Because the very ref says that the jews are entrusted with the fact that Jesus is noone in particular. If this is the truth for them, and should be the truth to you, and therefore you don't see any paradox. Ok, fine.
As I said it is not a paradox to me as to you.
[b]Romans 3:2
New International Version (NIV)
2 Much in every way! First of all, the Jews have been entrusted with the very words of God.
I am not avoiding anything, as there is nothing to avoid. Will you answer a question for me that you do seem to be avoiding? Do you adhere to an ...[text shortened]... ecause it would mean trouble for you? I am just trying to understand you a little better. Thx.[/b]
"Do you adhere to any faith?" Yes. My own.
"By this I mean, are you a Christian, Jew, Muslim, JW, Hindu, Atheist, etc.?" None of the above. What I believe in has no name. It's just one 'member': Me.
"Do you believe in anything spiritual?" Yes.
"Do you not answer because it would mean trouble for you?" Yes, in the sense that my beliefs are not important for others, they are ever-changing, they cannot be understood by anyone else, it's just a personal belief.
Originally posted by FabianFnasOk, understood.
Funny. Because the very ref says that the jews are entrusted with the fact that Jesus is noone in particular. If this is the truth for them, and should be the truth to you, and therefore you don't see any paradox. Ok, fine.
"Do you adhere to any faith?" Yes. My own.
"By this I mean, are you a Christian, Jew, Muslim, JW, Hindu, Atheist, etc.?" None of ...[text shortened]... , they are ever-changing, they cannot be understood by anyone else, it's just a personal belief.
Fabian,
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If I wanted to be religious, and have to chose between one religion (judaism) that is the religion of the gods own chosen people, or another religion which is *not* a religion of cod chosen people. Which religion should I chose?
The answer is obvious - the judaism, of course.
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The Israelites are not God's chosen people in the world to receive eternal life. Israel alone is not given exclusive rights to eternal life.
Christ was to be Israel's Messiah. Israel as a whole rejected Christ to be their Savior. Christ was going to be their Messiah, but they rejected Him. When they rejected Him, they refused to believe in God's Way of Salvation.
Now, Christ is the Messiah for all people. Christ offers salvation to the Israelites still and the Gentiles also. Israel must put faith in the Messiah that already came in order to have eternal life.
There is no other salvation in any other being or thing. For Israel or for Gentiles.
King James Version
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Romans 11: 1, 2, 23
I say then, Hath God cast away his people? God forbid. For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of the tribe of Benjamin.
God hath not cast away his people which he foreknew. . .
And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
Acts 4: 10 - 12
Be it known unto you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom ye crucified, whom God raised from the dead, even by him doth this man stand here before you whole.
This is the stone which was set at nought of you builders, which is become the head of the corner.
Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Originally posted by KingOnPointSo if not the israelites are not God's chosen people in the world to receive eternal life - then who is?
The Israelites are not God's chosen people in the world to receive eternal life. Israel alone is not given exclusive rights to eternal life.
I hope you don't just avoid the question...
Fabian,
You Typed
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So if not the israelites are not God's chosen people in the world to receive eternal life - then who is?
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All of the world is offered eternal life. The ones who put faith in Christ are made sons [and daughters] of God. Christ makes believers heirs of God. For all who have eternal life through Jesus, they are accepted of God. Israel must believe in Christ as well.
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King James Version
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Romans 9: 6-8
Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
Romans 9: 31-33
But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Romans 10: 2-4
For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Romans 10: 8-12
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
Originally posted by KingOnPointNo, that is not what jewish people says. That is not what the many christians say.
Fabian,
You Typed
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So if not the israelites are not God's chosen people in the world to receive eternal life - then who is?
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All of the world is offered eternal life. The ones who put faith in Christ are made sons [and daughters] of God. Christ makes believers heirs of God. For all who have etern ...[text shortened]... e between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
In the OT there are some prophecies describing that the gods chosen people will have Israel in the future. (You know the passage.)
You write: "The ones who put faith in Christ are made sons [and daughters] of God." meaning that the jews are *not* the chosen people of god, and therefore should move out of Israel and let the land be settled by the true owners.
Please, don't try to fool me. If we discuss different things, then my interest of continuing this line of discussion will die out, my idea of the christian paradox will persist.
Fabian,
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No, that is not what jewish people says. That is not what the many christians say.
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I am not surprised if Israeli people that don't believe in Christ as Savior won't say that.
And if the "many Christians" aren't saying that, then go read the bible for yourself and you will find that it does say that.
You can start reading in Romans.
Also, why do you think that there are Christians that favor the Israelites? It is because God favored the Israelites once Himself. God will favor some Israelites again for a big battle coming in the future. However, salvation has been offered to both Gentiles, as well as Israel. And why do you think that Israelites and Gentiles have been saved?
Read the bible for yourself.
Originally posted by KingOnPointWe are diverging from the paradox.
Fabian,
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No, that is not what jewish people says. That is not what the many christians say.
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I am not surprised if Israeli people that don't believe in Christ as Savior won't say that.
And if the "many Christians" aren't saying that, then go read the bible for yourself and you will find that it does ...[text shortened]... d why do you think that Israelites and Gentiles have been saved?
Read the bible for yourself.
Are the jews the gods own chosen people or not? You say: No.
Then the jews are wrong. They should move out from Israel, and the prophecy didn't work.
You ask me to read the bible. But the bible says that the jews really are the gods own chosen people, many places in OT says that. This mean that either you or the bible is wrong.
...or we have a new paradox.