Originally posted by FabianFnasYou let RJHinds judge you, but you don't care about his judgement, so what is his point to judge you? I judge you, and you don't care. You judge me, and I don't care. So here we are, judging each other, and noone cares. Quite watered down to nothing, if you let me judge.
Looks like we are using the word "judge" differently.
It seems to me that you use it in a judicial sense: judgement MUST have a consequence. I do not see it that way at all.
I use the word more in the sense of "forming a judgement or opinion", or rather "evaluating".
In my previous example of the bald guy selling an infallible hair restorer, I would "judge" his statement on the basis of his apparent non-performance, and I would not buy his product. However, this "judgement" of mine may not prevent him from looking for other suckers.
In fact, we ALL judge, all the time. We are constantly evaluating, comparing. Again, the basis on HOW we judge and compare is very important.
So yes, you or Hinds or anybody else is free to judge me, but whether I value the judgement and do something about it or ignore it is my choice, and that will depend on the amount of credibility you have with me.
If you judge me I'll just say "Who are you to judge me?" And your answer will be:
"Because I am a christian, and therefore I am a better than you are, so that is why I can judge you!" then I say "You have a bad moral."
or
"I am christian and Jesus tells me to judge you!", then I say, "Then you are imprisoned by your Jesus and have lost your ability to think for yourself."
No no no no no, a thousand times no!
Again (and please excuse me if I repeat myself) the way I use the word has nothing at all to do with Christianity! When Jesus said: "Judge a tree by its fruit" he was saying nothing more than "Use your common sense, stupid!"
You are using the word as somebody who sits in authority over somebody else and has power of life and death over him. Although that could be a valid use of the word under certain circumstances, that was never my intention in this discussion!
You will have your personal judgement of your judgement day. That's the judgement you should fear. Because if it turns out that you have misinterpreted your bible, then you will burn for eternal in hell.
Maybe you missed my other thread where I asked Is God more cruel than the worst sadist you know? That will give you an idea what I think about hell and eternal torment.
Methinks we have exhausted the subject of "judging". Anything else on your mind?
Originally posted by CalJustYou've solved the paradox here. If I change every instance of "judge" to "evaluate" then I have nothing more to say. We all have the right to evaluate, christians and others, everything or everyone. What we do with our evaluation is a completely another matter.
[b]You let RJHinds judge you, but you don't care about his judgement, so what is his point to judge you? I judge you, and you don't care. You judge me, and I don't care. So here we are, judging each other, and noone cares. Quite watered down to nothing, if you let me judge.
Looks like we are using the word "judge" differently.
It seems to me that ...[text shortened]... al torment.
Methinks we have exhausted the subject of "judging". Anything else on your mind?[/b]
Sorry that I stirred up things.
Originally posted by FabianFnasNo problem at all, Fabian. I must say I quite enjoy my discussion with you - especially since there seems to be such a dirth of anything interesting in most of the other current threads.
Sorry that I stirred up things.
So, pick a subject. This is your thread!
😉
Originally posted by CalJustOh, but this is not my thread anymore. 🙂
No problem at all, Fabian. I must say I quite enjoy my discussion with you - especially since there seems to be such a dirth of anything interesting in most of the other current threads.
So, pick a subject. This is your thread!
😉
It's a pleasure to discuss things with you too! 🙂
Caljust,
You don't seem to understand that people who are not christians can look at Christians sinning or having bad attitudes. Such ways can push people away from Christ.
However, if a non-believer or believer realizes that Christ is the example, not sinful Christians, then they are not open as much to disbelief of God and Christ. They focus on a perfect example instead of sinners. Therefore, there example is perfectly faithful.
Don't you see that human nature is such among people who don't believe in Christ to start with or even God to start with?
Focus on the positive so that we can know how to live and not the negative which includes sinning Christians. Why do you want non-believers to look at sinning Christians and then turn from Christ altogether?
CalJust,
Apparently, you typed
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Again (and please excuse me if I repeat myself) the way I use the word has nothing at all to do with Christianity! When Jesus said: "Judge a tree by its fruit" he was saying nothing more than "Use your common sense, stupid!"
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I submit that Christ did not say that his listeners were "stupid." In love, Christ did not do that. He spoke on the point rather than adding a cut-down name. He loved His neighbor.
Originally posted by KingOnPointOK, I was speaking metaphorically.
CalJust,
Apparently, you typed
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Again (and please excuse me if I repeat myself) the way I use the word has nothing at all to do with Christianity! When Jesus said: "Judge a tree by its fruit" he was saying nothing more than "Use your common sense, stupid!"
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I submit that Christ did not ...[text shortened]... not do that. He spoke on the point rather than adding a cut-down name. He loved His neighbor.
Btw, Jesus called people a lot worse names than "stupid". How about snakes, vipers, white-painted graves, crooks and thieves, etc
Fabian,
I too receive silence from the God of the bible. For me, I want more for my life than this hateful human life. I want a future.
The future I want is not in myself, nor in my human reasoning. I find no answers in my own human reasoning. I reach further than myself because I cannot get myself anywhere. I did not put myself into humanity and I cannot put myself into eternity.
I am subject to God who created me. I choose God out of necessity. But no matter my choice, I need God to take care of my life on this earth and further. I cannot do it myself.
Even if you did learn all of knowledge on this earth, what would it profit you, if you lost your own soul? Seek God no matter what! If you want to seek knowledge, then fine. But God is even more important than knowledge. He has the answer for your future and mine.
Continue to seek God for your sake. If you don't know God, then pray and tell Him so. Be honest from your heart.
When Christ called people thieves, vipers, hypocrites and whatever else, he still loved them. Calling someone such can still be out of love. It may turn their hearts around. But how does calling someone "stupid" lead them to turn around their heart?
If I am not mistaken, one of my neighbors said that I was evil and told me the reason why she thought that. After that, I cried and said that I don't know how. I would not say that I was referring directly to my neighbors desire for me to go to church, but something even more important. To this day I don't know how to gain the more important supply for my need. However, if she did call me evil because I did not go to church, it was not a cut-down.
I would rather know my condition with God Himself even if it meant telling me the truth. However, I don't see why God would call me stupid. What does that have to do with being right with God or keeping the commandments of Christ?
Originally posted by KingOnPointHi KoP,
However, if a non-believer realizes that Christ is the example, not sinful Christians, then they are not open as much to disbelief of God and Christ.
Focus on the positive so that we can know how to live and not the negative which includes sinning Christians. Why do you want non-believers to look at sinning Christians and then turn from Christ altogether?
Your concern is commendable, but misplaced.
Unbelievers in general (just for example look at twitehead's comments in my latest thread) do NOT take Christ as the example, because they do not recognize his position and/or authority.
Of course, that is natural, and Jesus knew that. That is why he said that his followers would have to be the example in which non-believers would see his message. "By THIS will all men know ......"
My purpose in some of my posts to date is to point out the following:
1. That the christian message is far more than the "accept christ or go to hell!" message that is being presented by many on RHP - and in a most confrontational and repulsive way, I might add,
2. That you do not have to leave your brain at the door when you enter a church, and that belief in the standard geological, cosmological and biological scientific models is quite OK
3. That the essence of Jesus' message was Compassion, and concern for each other. Check it out!
If I am ruffling some feathers, so be it. I don't think that i can do any more damage to the cause of Christ (if that is what you are worried about) than what is happening daily on this forum by fire breathing evangelicals.
Have i answered your question?
CalJust,
What I am concerned about is that Fabian doesn't like the way "Christains" have treated him. Also, he may have said that he would not be a Christian. However, he may not have such an attitude toward believing in Christ if they were more like his female friend who acts more like Christ, than the others do.
However, maybe you were trying to bring up a point different than I was trying to make. If that is the case, I did not understand your post. And I still don't understand it since I was focusing on my point. Fabian already doesn't believe in Christ, nor other people. They don't need more reason's not to believe in Christ by Christians sinning.
Originally posted by KingOnPointIf my father didn't gave anything than silence, I would dismiss him as my father. Why not do the same with god. I can see my father, even if he is silence, so I can easily believe that he exists. I cannot do that with god. So, for me god does not exist - if he doesn't show himself to me, or say something. I'm still waiting.
Fabian,
I too receive silence from the God of the bible. For me, I want more for my life than this hateful human life. I want a future.
The future I want is not in myself, nor in my human reasoning. I find no answers in my own human reasoning. I reach further than myself because I cannot get myself anywhere. I did not put myself into humanity an ...[text shortened]... od for your sake. If you don't know God, then pray and tell Him so. Be honest from your heart.
By listening to authorities and learn, then you have to know if it is a real authority or a cheating one. To tell which is teaching me valuable things and which is just blabbing, then I have to go into myself, reason, and make a decision. Some self-proclaimed instructors are easy to dismiss, some others you have to think more about. So therefore you have to rely on your own senses instead of putting your brain on the hat shelf.
If you by "soul" mean the religious "soul", then I have to pass the question. If you by "soul" mean your personality, then I am with you. But don't get rid of your personality when you become religious. You are still you. Don't believe in anyone saying that you have to do this and that, be like this and that, believe this and that, in order to gain spiritual knowledge. If you have to put your soul on the hat shelf, then think again.
Is it the christian god I would chose? Isn't it better to join the gods own people, the jewish people? Or the the teaching of Buddha who says that you will enter Nirvana if you live right? Who are the right preachers, and who are the wrong ones? Who can tell?
Fabian, let me try to tackle the very difficult topic that you have mentioned now several times - that of God's silence.
Maybe you are lucky that you don't hear "His Voice". There are far too many people who glibly say: God said to me this morning.....
And then tomorrow morning he says something completely different, often contradictory.
I don't think so.
The question of how we hear God's voice has been discussed and pondered a zillion times. For me, it is more a question of recognising how God DOES speak.
We have a little habit in our family, a ritual really, which we call "God Sightings." Typically somebody would report an extraordinarily beautiful tree in flower on the way to work, a spectacular sunset or a smile on a little child's face. We would share this around the dinner table.
I read quite a lot, and something that Richard Rohr said once is that: If God is Love, then this is a benevolent universe. I like to see it that way; look for the beauty, the harmony, the comfort and the small joys.
(OK, now I am immediately branded a pantheist by some! Go right ahead!)
However, I also have what I call my "piles of rocks along the way". When the Israelites travelled in the wilderness, every now and then, usually at some spectacular event like the crossing of the Red Sea or Jordan, Moses told them to build a pile of rocks at that place. His instructions were that when future generations asked: What do these rocks mean? then one could tell them: This and this is what God did for us that day.
In the same way I have collected over the years (in fact from early childhood) experiences which were, for me, major God Sightings. For example, when in answer to prayer I found my lost watch, which I had inherited from my father who was killed in the war, and miraculously recovered my stolen bicycle which was irreplaceable due to our financial position. I have mentally revisited these "piles of rocks" many times during my adult life when times got tough, and have been encouraged and reminded that it is, indeed, a "benevolent universe".
So I do not know how you were expecting to hear from God, and how you diagnosed "silence". Maybe if you tuned your senses a little differently, you may well receive something.
Dunno if this helps. I report this merely as a personal experience, and do not draw much dogma from it.
Sceptics, feel free to ridicule me!
Originally posted by CalJustNo, I wouldn't think to ridicule you, but I'm still sceptic.
Fabian, let me try to tackle the very difficult topic that you have mentioned now several times - that of God's silence.
Maybe you are lucky that you don't hear "His Voice". There are far too many people who glibly say: God said to me this morning.....
And then tomorrow morning he says something completely different, often contradictory.
I do ...[text shortened]... personal experience, and do not draw much dogma from it.
Sceptics, feel free to ridicule me!
I am marvelled of seeing a red flower in all that green. And I think it is beautiful! The next thought is why evolution has brought this extraordinary colour to my vision! The answer is coming flying at the moment: to attract insects to pollinate the plant. No god needed.
I am also marvelled at the spectacular view right above my head every clear night. Stars sparkling, a glimps of Andromeda galaxy, the crescent moon, and Jupter. And it is all there, like it is telling me something! That we can be lucky to be born on a habitable planet when there are millions cold, air-less, greyish planets not suitable for life out there, thousands of lightyears away. And this is the story of universe, how big-bang all started. Of a natural process or by some unknown entity breathing on the primordial singularity. the christian god isn't needed for that. The bible have just a non-scientific story which gives more new questions than answers.
So if this is god talking, then he talks with a very silent voice. If he want to speak with me, he would arrange the star to letters that I could read, flowers with readable DNA giving me a readable message. Or perhaps only five edge snow-flakes. He doesn't. He is silent. Every thing you hear and see as a message tahat can be explained as the voice of your god, it can as easily be explained by biology and physics.
When I see a beautiful girl on the street, and she gives me a glance I see the message "I love you" in her eyes. I see what I want to see. As you see what you want to see. As your god talks to you.
For me he is just silent, not saying anything. Like Santa Claus in June. Also silent.