@ghost-of-a-duke said
Okay, a torrent of water flows down a hill and hits a wooden dam. All along the dam the water tries to get through, but is prevented from doing so by the strong wood. There is however a small hole in the damn which the water finally finds and forces its way through.

Did the water pass through the dam by accident? Did it design its way through?

Or is there a third option?

All of that owes their very existence to something else, the hill, water, dam, hole, and so on. You don't get wood without trees, and the trees are not self-existing; they come from something else.

@kellyjay said
All of that owes their very existence to something else, the hill, water, dam, hole, and so on. You don't get wood without trees, and the trees are not self-existing; they come from something else.

The 3rd option was trial and error. (Not planned and not entirely by chance). Indeed, evolution itself works this way.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The 3rd option was trial and error. (Not planned and not entirely by chance). Indeed, evolution itself works this way.

The mathematics doesn't agree with you, or chemistry, and a host of other things. You can not even put together what had to happen where, when, how, why! At best, you have to start with an already established system and attempt to suggest all the time, and required variables were right where they need to be in perfect conditions, quantities, and so on.

@kellyjay said
The mathematics doesn't agree with you, or chemistry, and a host of other things. You can not even put together what had to happen where, when, how, why! At best, you have to start with an already established system and attempt to suggest all the time, and required variables were right where they need to be in perfect conditions, quantities, and so on.

It is true that I don't have billions of years to prove it to you. You've got me there.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is true that I don't have billions of years to prove it to you. You've got me there.

You don't have any idea on how long the process would take if you designed it, what conditions would be required, let alone all the necessary variables and their states either for this process. It is the theory of gaps and wishful thinking.

@kellyjay said
You don't have any idea on how long the process would take if you designed it, what conditions would be required, let alone all the necessary variables and their states either for this process. It is the theory of gaps and wishful thinking.

It is the 'theory' of an immense period of time and a universe so big that it is inconceivable the right variables 'wouldn't' be present somewhere. Lucky for us it was here.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
It is the 'theory' of an immense period of time and a universe so big that it is inconceivable the right variables 'wouldn't' be present somewhere. Lucky for us it was here.

The immense period of time does nothing to help you, nothing!

@kellyjay said
The immense period of time does nothing to help you, nothing!

Seriously?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
The cosmological argument has been comprehensibly debunked. It's probably one of the weakest arguments you could put forward.

How did everything come into existence, if its a weak argument you should be able to knock this out of the park, and if not, what does that say about your claim of being comprehensibly debunked?

@kellyjay said
How did everything come into existence, if its a weak argument you should be able to knock this out of the park, and if not, what does that say about your claim of being comprehensibly debunked?

You want me to tell you again how I believe in an eternal universe that has always existed, in one form or another? Is repetition important to you?

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Seriously?

What does great time do for you if everything needed isn't there or the environment isn't proper? A window of opportunity must occur for a chance even to happen when everything is just right. The monkey typing to produce a work of a Shakespeare sonnet given endless time couldn't happen if you don't have either monkeys or something to type on. The only time the clock matters is when everything is in place for a chance to get it right, then, and only then does time count.

Even limitless time is not helpful if there are no opportunities for success. The only time that matters are tiny windows of opportunities when all conditions are met. Material requirements and environmental conditions are never infinite; we can only play with the toys we have as long as we have them. Therefore chances for success are not restrained by time but by material location and chemical reactions. If the reactions use up all the required chemicals for success and turn them into something else, that means we are back to not having what is needed and time adds nothing to the processes once again.

@ghost-of-a-duke said
You want me to tell you again how I believe in an eternal universe that has always existed, in one form or another? Is repetition important to you?

Evidence for this is what? You don't have any idea how or why this one was formed, and you think the answer to that question is it has been going on before, again and again.

@kellyjay said
Evidence for this is what?

Sorry, I thought this was about you not remembering or having any real interest in the views I have previously shared with you. (And explained why I believe them).

@ghost-of-a-duke said
Sorry, I thought this was about you not remembering or having any real interest in the views I have previously shared with you. (And explained why I believe them).

I remember you pointed to others who shared the belief, and you agree with them. Beyond that, you bounce back and forth without really giving up rational staying vague.

@kellyjay said
I remember you pointed to others who shared the belief, and you agree with them. Beyond that, you bounce back and forth without really giving up rational staying vague.

Ah, so you have simply forgotten.