Spirituality
02 Jan 20
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21 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidWhy don’t you ask him how many saviours he has and save yourself all this waffly back-and-forth which no one is reading including both of you.
The creation was good and its completion was called very good. From there it is what we have been making it by twisting it towards our ends by avoiding what God has for us. I'm not sure if you are blaming God for the evil we do.
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidYou haven't explained why you find the protection withdrawal theory daft, you've just stated an emotional response to it.
Would you settle for 'I find' other explanations as just daft?
Now it might be true that the text doesn't explicitly state that God sent the bears, but it heavily implies it to the very brink of coloring by numbers. Let's examine 2 Kings 2:24 'And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the Lord. And there came forth two she bears out of ...[text shortened]... f the prophet cursed only one child in the name of the Lord and then 2 bears appeared to attack him.
There's a problem of time in the Bible, the Bible writers are capable of skipping a few years mid-sentence. In terms of actual bear behaviour what's described is on the border of what's possible. According to the Wikipedia page bears are the most solitary of the carnivores; females will sometimes band together when they have cubs or when they are juvenile, but bears are largely solitary and would almost never attack a group that size. The most similar attack in modern times was an attack on some students in Alaska [1], of the 4 hospitalized all survived. Having said that if they are food stressed bears have been known to predate humans [2].
Numbers in the Bible are never accidental and are always significant. For example Exodus starts:
1 Now these are the names of the children of Israel, which came into Egypt; every man and his household came with Jacob. 2 Reuben, Simeon, Levi, and Judah, 3 Issachar, Zebulun, and Benjamin, 4 Dan, and Naphtali, Gad, and Asher. 5 And all the souls that came out of the loins of Jacob were seventy souls: for Joseph was in Egypt already. 6 And Joseph died, and all his brethren, and all that generation.
Exodus 1:1-6 AKJV
Then later in Exodus:
24 And he said unto Moses, Come up unto the Lord, thou, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel; and worship ye afar off. 2 And Moses alone shall come near the Lord: but they shall not come nigh; neither shall the people go up with him.
Exodus 24: 1-2 AKJV
Then in 2 Kings:
10 And Ahab had seventy sons in Samaria. And Jehu wrote letters, and sent to Samaria, unto the rulers of Jezreel, to the elders, and to them that brought up Ahab’s children, saying, 2 Now as soon as this letter cometh to you, seeing your master’s sons are with you, and there are with you chariots and horses, a fenced city also, and armour; 3 look even out the best and meetest of your master’s sons, and set him on his father’s throne, and fight for your master’s house. 4 But they were exceedingly afraid, and said, Behold, two kings stood not before him: how then shall we stand? 5 And he that was over the house, and he that was over the city, the elders also, and the bringers up of the children, sent to Jehu, saying, We are thy servants, and will do all that thou shalt bid us; we will not make any king: do thou that which is good in thine eyes.
6 Then he wrote a letter the second time to them, saying, If ye be mine, and if ye will hearken unto my voice, take ye the heads of the men your master’s sons, and come to me to Jezreel by to morrow this time. Now the king’s sons, being seventy persons, were with the great men of the city, which brought them up. 7 And it came to pass, when the letter came to them, that they took the king’s sons, and slew seventy persons, and put their heads in baskets, and sent him them to Jezreel.
2 Kings 10:1-7 AKJV
What seems to me to be going on here is connected with the transition from polytheism to monotheism. The Canaanite creator God was El and his wife was Ashorah [3], they had seventy sons (I'm struggling to find a reference to this, but it's connected with the number of cities), so the seventy children of Joseph and the seventy Elders of Israel are references to this. Then the slaying of the seventy sons of Ahab is representative of the discarding of the other Gods of Canaan by the Cult of Jahweh - El and Jahweh merge, and take on the aspects of all the other Gods. There's a reference to this at the start of the flood story:
6 And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, 2 that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. 3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. 4 There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.
Genesis 6:1-4 AKJV
On an unconnected note, in an earlier post, I think in this thread, you were contrasting the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, in an attempt to claim that God is not unchanging. The difficulty is that it does not have to be God that is unchanging, but our relationship with him.
[1] https://web.archive.org/web/20140202115246/http://nols.blogs.com/nols_news/2011/07/press-release-nols-students-injured-in-bear-attack-in-alaska.html
[2] http://web.archive.org/web/20080829142503/http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/europe/article4387144.ece
[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ancient_Canaanite_religion
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidI tend to agree that demonizing the children by comparing them with modern gangs is just weak. The Hebrew presented in biblehub specifies "youths little", which must mean children. Literal interpretations of the Bible have to rely on God being pretty arbitrary and not distinguishing between the crimes of adults and of children. Although Elisha's contribution is significant here, he is the one that cursed them. Abraham did his best for the population of Sodom and God agreed not to wipe them out if there were ten righteous men. So it is Elisha's curse which doomed them, God would not have acted if Elisha had not.
@DeepThought
The whole 'bear-gate' incident is commonly defended thus:
'First of all, this was no minor offense, for these young men held God’s prophet in contempt. Since the prophet was God’s mouthpiece to His people, God Himself was being most wickedly insulted in the person of His prophet.
Second, these were not small, innocent children. They were wicked y ...[text shortened]... gment upon this impious gang.'
https://defendinginerrancy.com/bible-solutions/2_Kings_2.23-24.php
21 Jan 20
@deepthought saidI believe I did that sir with the rhetorical question;
You haven't explained why you find the protection withdrawal theory daft, you've just stated an emotional response to it.
'Did God withdraw his protection from the children in order for the bears to attack, meaning (apparently) that children walk around fully and divinely protected from bear attacks until they act unrighteously and lose that protection? '
What protection does God provide children from bear attacks? Where is the evidence that such protection existed?
21 Jan 20
@deepthought saidI don't see any difficulty here. It is true man's relationship with God changes, but this is a different issue from the changes in God's own character and behavior which is clearly poles apart between the 2 testaments. I have yet to encounter a Christian who successfully sews together the God of the Old and the God of the New, while simultaneously profering the claim that God is unchanging.
On an unconnected note, in an earlier post, I think in this thread, you were contrasting the God of the Old Testament and the God of the New Testament, in an attempt to claim that God is not unchanging. The difficulty is that it does not have to be God that is unchanging, but our relationship with him.
21 Jan 20
@deepthought saidIt also jars with the approach Jesus had with children in the NT:
I tend to agree that demonizing the children by comparing them with modern gangs is just weak. The Hebrew presented in biblehub specifies "youths little", which must mean children. Literal interpretations of the Bible have to rely on God being pretty arbitrary and not distinguishing between the crimes of adults and of children. Although Elisha's contribution is signifi ...[text shortened]... ghteous men. So it is Elisha's curse which doomed them, God would not have acted if Elisha had not.
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
Matthew 19:14
And Elisha may have loaded the gun, but it was God who fired the bullet.
21 Jan 20
@galveston75 saidNo, I'm not blaming God for what evil we do, and I actually didn't think you were either. Here we are free to do as we will and we see the results of our choices, and they will come with an accountability to God. He will not let evil and wickedness go unanswered.
@KellyJay
Absolutely not..... And you are saying you do, correct?
21 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidYou have asserted over and over and over again that you are "wicked and evil" and that you deserve to be tormented in burning flames for eternity. You have a moral compass, don't you? Why don't you use your free will and choices to stop being "wicked and evil"?
No, I'm not blaming God for what evil we do, and I actually didn't think you were either. Here we are free to do as we will and we see the results of our choices, and they will come with an accountability to God. He will not let evil and wickedness go unanswered.
21 Jan 20
@kellyjay saidOkay then Kelly, how do you reconcile the following:
He didn't change, our relationship with Him did.
'And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.' (After being cursed by the prophet).
And
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell in all fairness you have two completely situations here. Yes we should never hinder in letting young ones learn about Jehovah and the future he has planned for all and the good and peaceable life he offers now.
Okay then Kelly, how do you reconcile the following:
'And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.' (After being cursed by the prophet).
And
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."
But there unfortunately is the other extreme that Jehovah reads the hearts of all including children as was the case in the bear incident.
You can't compare the two.......
21 Jan 20
1 edit
@galveston75 saidI think the two come together in the value they attribute to children. Would a God, who truly viewed the kingdom of heaven as belonging to children react so disproportionately in punishing such children for their mockery by sending bears to attack them? Do you not see the disparity?
Well in all fairness you have two completely situations here. Yes we should never hinder in letting young ones learn about Jehovah and the future he has planned for all and the good and peaceable life he offers now.
But there unfortunately is the other extreme that Jehovah reads the hearts of all including children as was the case in the bear incident.
You can't compare the two.......
Edit: I think you do.
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell yes the two issues here are at the opposite ends of the spectrum but considering the millions of people that have followed Jehovah in the past till now and his ways and commands and the millions of children who loved their parents and their fellow man thru out their life's, were not ripped apart by some wild animals ever and then you have just a couple stories in the Bible where this other extreme happened, I'd say that pretty much most children are on the good side of God.
I think the two come together in the value they attribute to children. Would a God, who truly viewed the kingdom of heaven as belonging to children react so disproportionately in punishing such children for their mockery by sending bears to attack them? Do you not see the disparity?
Edit: I think you do.
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWell they've stopped worshiping Baal, putting up Ashoreth Poles, and making sacrifices in high places. Also you're missing things like this:
I don't see any difficulty here. It is true man's relationship with God changes, but this is a different issue from the changes in God's own character and behavior which is clearly poles apart between the 2 testaments. I have yet to encounter a Christian who successfully sews together the God of the Old and the God of the New, while simultaneously profering the claim that God is unchanging.
10 So he arose and went to Zarephath. And when he came to the gate of the city, behold, the widow woman was there gathering of sticks: and he called to her, and said, Fetch me, I pray thee, a little water in a vessel, that I may drink. 11 And as she was going to fetch it, he called to her, and said, Bring me, I pray thee, a morsel of bread in thine hand. 12 And she said, As the Lord thy God liveth, I have not a cake, but an handful of meal in a barrel, and a little oil in a cruse: and, behold, I am gathering two sticks, that I may go in and dress it for me and my son, that we may eat it, and die. 13 And Elijah said unto her, Fear not; go and do as thou hast said: but make me thereof a little cake first, and bring it unto me, and after make for thee and for thy son. 14 For thus saith the Lord God of Israel, The barrel of meal shall not waste, neither shall the cruse of oil fail, until the day that the Lord sendeth rain upon the earth. 15 And she went and did according to the saying of Elijah: and she, and he, and her house, did eat many days. 16 And the barrel of meal wasted not, neither did the cruse of oil fail, according to the word of the Lord, which he spake by Elijah.
1 Kings 17:10-16 AKJV
So he's kind to widows, besides God's pretty patient and there's plenty of smiting to look forward to come the apocalypse as foreseen in the Book of Revelation.
21 Jan 20
@ghost-of-a-duke saidWhat were they doing? Even children are known by their actions.
Okay then Kelly, how do you reconcile the following:
'And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.' (After being cursed by the prophet).
And
"Let the children alone, and do not hinder them from coming to Me; for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these."