Graven images, Worship, Commandments

Originally posted by Conrau K
Some have. Catholics believe that there are certain moral justifications for war.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
if you died in a car would you venerate it? perhaps you would have a little model of it made to tie around your neck? bowing down to idols is strictly forbidden whether you choose to venerate it or have some other motive.

Originally posted by galveston75
Humm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.
But one finale question that you still have not answered. Again why did Noah, Moses, Jesus, the apostles, or as a matter of fact any of God's people ever use idols in any form of worship that you do? Again....show me ((((( 1 )))) scripture that any of them did.
And don't rever ...[text shortened]... as bowing in front of or kissing or praying too. You don't see the differance though do you?

I do not think that the veneration of the cross or a statue of Mary differs significantly from the reverence given to the ark of the covenant. In fact, the ark receives even greater honor:

And Solomon awakened, and perceived that it was a dream: and when he had come to Jerusalem, he stood before the ark of the covenant of the Lord, and offered holocausts, and sacrificed victims of peace offerings, and made a great feast for all his servants.
1Kings 3:15

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, that car would not be a symbol of Jesus Christ, God and saviour, nor would it be a symbol of the redemption of mankind. Your comparison is utterly bizarre.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
bizarre? what is bizarre is veneration of an instrument of torture, in this case a wooden cross, that is what is bizarre, when one really thinks about it.

Originally posted by Conrau K
But it was not merely an instrument of torture. As Jesus frequently admonishes his disciples, each Christian must carry his cross. The cross therefore represents the cost of discipleship. The cross was also the instrument of salvation. What was an instrument of torture became for Christians the sign of salvation as Jesus redeemed mankind on the cross. To in ...[text shortened]... em to venerate it. There is no idolatrous intent if they truly believe the cross represents God.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]Humm..Not according to Jesus's words and examples that we are not to kill.

I think Jesus would have made an exception is cases of self-defense or defense of the vulnerable. Do you think Jesus would have said of the Holocaust 'Just stand back and wave peaceful placards. Don't involve yourself'?

But one finale question that you still have not ...[text shortened]... tude. How can you call these people idolatrous when they never intended to be idolatrous?

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
the practice of the veneration of a piece of wood, of which Isaiah clearly spoke, is ridiculous. whether you wish to portray it as a God, a symbol of your God, having no idolatrous intent or anything else.

My two cents worth: I can see Conraus point when he says that a statue may just be there to focus the congregations attention on some aspect of the ideals being preached, (or whatever).
I also see some of Robbies and G75's points where they rightly point out that these things can lead to idolatry.
I see the JW's being inflexible on this point whereas I'm not sure how Conrau views it.
Unfortanetly , I see different denominations touting their own one-size-fits-all approach far too often.
Where is the harm in having a nice statue to focus one's energy to the higher truth being put forward?
Does it matter where people are in their "spiritual journey"? eg. Do beigginers possibly benefit from pretty idol-like statues or pictures to keep their minds on the higher truths being discussed?

Originally posted by karoly aczel
My two cents worth: I can see Conraus point when he says that a statue may just be there to focus the congregations attention on some aspect of the ideals being preached, (or whatever).
I also see some of Robbies and G75's points where they rightly point out that these things can lead to idolatry.
I see the JW's being inflexible on this point whereas ty idol-like statues or pictures to keep their minds on the higher truths being discussed?

Originally posted by galveston75
I've asked Conraus many times to show me where it is approved to do so and so far nothing. Just 1 scripture that shows Jesus using or saying to use idols or statues or whatever to pray to.

Main Entry: ven·er·ate
Pronunciation: ? This part did not paste correctly
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ven·er·at·ed; ven·er·at·ing
Etymology: Latin veneratus, past participle of venerari, from vener-, venus love, charm — more at win
Date: circa 1623

1 : to regard with reverential respect or with admiring deference
2 : to honor (as an icon or a relic) with a ritual act of devotion

Can we make a distinction between worship and venerate ?
Seems almost like the argument I had with RC recently about the organization being honored or whatever. Also we can make anything an idol. We all have done it at one time or another.

Manny

Originally posted by galveston75
The harm my friend is that the Bible condems them. Always has and always will as it's something God has no tollerance for. This is not my opinion but read the Bible and see for yourself.
But if one decides that they want to use an idol which in God's eyes is useless and is something that should not be used in worship to him, then that's their decision 1 scripture that shows Jesus using or saying to use idols or statues or whatever to pray to.

Originally posted by galveston75
"I know there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell." Blood Sweat and Tears....

"I know one's a fool who says there is no God, but it's pure suicide to think their is no Devil".... Me.