Graven images, Worship, Commandments

Originally posted by whodey
Never mind that man, I just poured myself some cereal and one of the bran flakes has the unmistakable resemblance to the virgin Mary!!

Edt: I'll sell it to ya for a few hundred K.

😉 Dude that would freak me out!!


Manny

Originally posted by Proper Knob
Surely not as silly as thinking Satan exists?

Next you'll be telling me pixies, goblins, unicorns, griffins, leprechauns, sea monsters, mermaids etc etc exist. Or would that just be daft?

"I know there ain't no heaven but I pray there ain't no hell." Blood Sweat and Tears....

"I know one's a fool who says there is no God, but it's pure suicide to think their is no Devil".... Me.

Originally posted by galveston75
""" psychological attitude"""


What the heck does that mean??

Well, by psychological attitude, I meant the attitudes and dispositions of the worshipers. I find it strange that, even though these people do not intend to worship anyone other than God, nor have any idolatrous inclination away from God, you still accuse them of idolatry. Your judgment makes no account of the fact that these people have minds.

Originally posted by galveston75
The question I have is why can't they serve and talk to God without using these things? Has God ever said he would not listen to them unless they used an idol? Certainly not. Did Jesus ever say we had to do all those things? Certianly not. The one and only requirement is to pray thru Jesus's name. Such a simple and easy thing to do. No other strings atta ...[text shortened]... ng to their doctrines..life would be easier and their worship would be so much more enjoyable.

The question I have is why can't they serve and talk to God without using these things? Has God ever said he would not listen to them unless they used an idol? Certainly not. Did Jesus ever say we had to do all those things? Certianly not. The one and only requirement is to pray thru Jesus's name. Such a simple and easy thing to do. No other strings attached at all.

Catholics and Orthodox Christians do not use icons or statues to 'talk' to God. From the comments you make, I am quite alarmed that you really have no concept of spiritual life. You seem to think that prayer is simply about petitions, asking God for this or that. Has it occurred to you that maybe Christians use icons and statues, not because they think this is the only way to ask God, but because they simply want show their adoration for God?

And it would seem that without all these complicated rituals and rules and things they seemingly have to do according to their doctrines..life would be easier and their worship would be so much more enjoyable.

As I have explained before, these are not doctrines. The procession of the cross on Good Friday is optional. My parish did not have it. A statue of Mary is also optional. Some people like to pray before it, although in my experience, I have only seen a handful do so. These are not doctrines; these are personal devotions.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, by psychological attitude, I meant the attitudes and dispositions of the worshipers. I find it strange that, even though these people do not intend to worship anyone other than God, nor have any idolatrous inclination away from God, you still accuse them of idolatry. Your judgment makes no account of the fact that these people have minds.

So did God's people who fell into calf worship after Egypt have minds?. So did the German population who followed Hitler have minds. So did the ones who followed Jim Jones in the 70's to death have minds?...So what's your point?
Could it be that humans tend to follow whatever they are told too if they get brainwashed enough depending on their situation in life, such as being told despite all the scriptures in the Bible condeming idols and their uses, that it's really ok?
Is that what you mean?

Originally posted by galveston75
So did God's people who fell into calf worship after Egypt have minds?. So did the German population who followed Hitler have minds. So did the ones who followed Jim Jones in the 70's to death have minds?...So what's your point?
Could it be that humans tend to follow whatever they are told too if they get brainwashed enough depending on their situati ...[text shortened]... in the Bible condeming idols and their uses, that it's really ok?
Is that what you mean?

So did God's people who fell into calf worship after Egypt have minds?. So did the German population who followed Hitler have minds. So did the ones who followed Jim Jones in the 70's to death have minds?...So what's your point?

Yes, of course these people have minds. Consequently, when we seek to condemn them, we have to evaluate their intentions and dispositions. So when God's people in fear turned away to the worship of Baal, did they intend to commit idolatry? Clearly so. But when Catholics kiss the cross, a symbol of Jesus Christ and the salvation of all people, do they really intend to commit idolatry? I don't think so. This is a sign of their fidelity to the same God.

Could it be that humans tend to follow whatever they are told too if they get brainwashed enough depending on their situation in life, such as being told despite all the scriptures in the Bible condeming idols and their uses, that it's really ok?
Is that what you mean?

No. That is not what I meant and you clearly know that.

Originally posted by Conrau K
[b]The question I have is why can't they serve and talk to God without using these things? Has God ever said he would not listen to them unless they used an idol? Certainly not. Did Jesus ever say we had to do all those things? Certianly not. The one and only requirement is to pray thru Jesus's name. Such a simple and easy thing to do. No other strings atta ...[text shortened]... ce, I have only seen a handful do so. These are not doctrines; these are personal devotions.

As I said before, and I'm really believeing I'm waisting my time, but it's not me that doesn't get it. Read your Bible and do what it tells you...not some centuries old doctrine that is not Bible based at all, and in fact goes contrary to what God orderd us to NOT do.
It's one thing to be tricked into believeing something false, but it's so sad when ones can't see the truth the Bible that it so clearly states ands turns their back on God.

Originally posted by galveston75
As I said before, and I'm really believeing I'm waisting my time, but it's not me that doesn't get it. Read your Bible and do what it tells you...not some centuries old doctrine that is not Bible based at all, and in fact goes contrary to what God orderd us to NOT do.
It's one thing to be tricked into believeing something false, but it's so sad when ones can't see the truth the Bible that it so clearly states ands turns their back on God.

Ho hum. This is just your insulting way of saying 'I understand the Bible but you don't.' It allows you to sidestep my objection that you have seriously misinterpreted what these prohibitions against idolatry mean.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Ho hum. This is just your insulting way of saying 'I understand the Bible but you don't.' It allows you to sidestep my objection that you have seriously misinterpreted what these prohibitions against idolatry mean.

one can hardly read scripture and find justification for it, can one?

Originally posted by Conrau K
Ho hum. This is just your insulting way of saying 'I understand the Bible but you don't.' It allows you to sidestep my objection that you have seriously misinterpreted what these prohibitions against idolatry mean.

Misinterpretation? Lol. Do you follow the other 9 commandments or or those open to interpretation too?
Oh wait..I forgot. The Catholics will kill if their country and priest says it's ok to.

Originally posted by robbie carrobie
one can hardly read scripture and find justification for it, can one?

Well, as I have pointed out, God is not completely prohibitive towards images. He orders the construction of images on multiple occasions. So the use of images and statues itself is not idolatrous. I believe the crucial difference is psychological: the Israelites had the intention to worship Baal and abandon the God that rescued them from Egypt; a Catholic, however, has no intention of worshiping anything other than God and is certainly not abandoning God. I just do not see how veneration of the cross could be seen as comparable to worship of a golden calf.

Originally posted by galveston75
Misinterpretation? Lol. Do you follow the other 9 commandments or or those open to interpretation too?
Oh wait..I forgot. The Catholics will kill if their country and priest says it's ok to.

How naive. All the commandments require interpretation. That does not mean they are 'open' for interpretation; it just an acknowledgment that laws require interpretation of some kind.

Oh wait..I forgot. The Catholics will kill if their country and priest says it's ok to.

What a snide comment. You will find that at the moment, there are many wars condemned by the Catholic Church. Pope John Paul clearly condemned the invasion of Iraq, yet no one listened then.

Originally posted by Conrau K
How naive. All the commandments require interpretation. That does not mean they are 'open' for interpretation; it just an acknowledgment that laws require interpretation of some kind.

[b] Oh wait..I forgot. The Catholics will kill if their country and priest says it's ok to.

What a snide comment. You will find that at the moment, there are many w ...[text shortened]... olic Church. Pope John Paul clearly condemned the invasion of Iraq, yet no one listened then.[/b]

Do Catholics fight and kill in wars?

Originally posted by galveston75
Do Catholics fight and kill in wars?

Some have. Catholics believe that there are certain moral justifications for war.

Originally posted by Conrau K
Well, as I have pointed out, God is not completely prohibitive towards images. He orders the construction of images on multiple occasions. So the use of images and statues itself is not idolatrous. I believe the crucial difference is psychological: the Israelites had the intention to worship Baal and abandon the God that rescued them from Egypt; a Catholic, ...[text shortened]... do not see how veneration of the cross could be seen as comparable to worship of a golden calf.

if you died in a car would you venerate it? perhaps you would have a little model of it made to tie around your neck? bowing down to idols is strictly forbidden whether you choose to venerate it or have some other motive.